Where is my country going ?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

It's the EU, they'll get the constitution into place regardless of the outcomes of referenda (Dutch No vote is on about 60% in opinion polls, UK opinion polls are very strongly against yet no referendum date declared yet).
Some of the big guns of the EU have already been saying things like "If they vote yes the project will continue; if they vote no the project will continue".

Sorry to hear about any possible upheavals in France but I feel that the whole of the EU political classes need their heads knocking together.

[71-hour Ahmed]

Are you moaning about the actual result or the nature of the debate prior to it? I'm finding it hard to see which (or both) is attracting your ire here.

[doc_bean]

It has happened before, I think it was back in the 70s, when the french shot down an important proposal actually suggested by the previous government. They actually sang the national anthem after it was rejected (the communist party at least).

Europe was put on hold back then, however, i don't see that happening now. Sure the constitution wont pass and certain, important aspects won't get realized. But the European project will continue.

As I've said before, the people of Europe don't feel that they ARE Europe or have a significant say in it, we need to stop the 2nd level elections government currently employed and have the people choose the executive.

Also, more and clearer information about Europe is needed. And we need to stop the rapid expansion, I have nothing against Turkey or Romania, but there is a limit to the funds and power of the union, we've already done a lot of good for a lot of countries, but it takes time and a lot of money.

Politicians are too ambitious and don't respect the will of the people, this is what results. We need a strong union (economically speaking, not in terms of power over its nations) not a large union per se.

[Papewaio]

Well France is on the Eurasian Tectonic Plate so it is slowly drifting along.

[Voigtkampf]

Well France is on the Eurasian Tectonic Plate so it is slowly drifting along.

Believe it or not, as I saw the title of this thread, I thought exactly the same.

[JAG]

Good to see you Don, I hope you are having a good time.

As to the EU not being representative / elected .. It is. Not only do we elect our national govts which have a huge say in how the EU is shaped but we also elect the EU parliament which makes decisions. The constitution made the whole process even more democratic it is one of the crying shames about it being rejected, the system would be far more representative if the constitution passed yet one of the major lines against the EU is that it is unrepresentative, so people vote no!

Sure parts of the executive are appointed, but appointed by our national govts and the EU parliament, both of which are directly elected. To state that there is no democracy is a far cry from the truth.

I agree that the constitution should have been in better English, but it wasn't so there is no need to dwell, it was / is still readable. Plus after all the debate on the constitution everyone in France should have known exactly what the situation was about.

I support the EU, yes and I am fairly ardent in my views. Why? Well simply put I think the best way for social justice in Europe is through the EU. The best way for workers rights to be guaranteed and progressed is through a Europe working together. Plus, I am a realistic socialist, even if you would like to think I am not. I realise the huge benefits of being part of the EU for trade and the economy. I am not someone who is so idealistic I fail to see the situation for what it is, we are living in an era of markets and globalisation and it will not change. Knowing this the way forward for people like me is to understand then the best way of moving towards the fundamental goals we still hold dear in this unfair system. And those goals are best served by the EU, via market alterations and tinkering, by stronger workers rights EU wide, by free movement of labour which intergrates the whole of Europe, etc. You could call me a social democrat, but that way has been watered down so much by govts who declare themselves social democratic govts - Schroder's Germany, Blair's Britain - that I hesitate to declare myself one.

So, yes the EU has some liberalising elements to it in terms of the economy but it too has a very strong sense of social justice and the protection of those at the bottom. That has now unfortunately been compromised by this vote in France for no, but we will soldier on, I guess.

I completely disagree with you about the welfare state - of course :p - but that needs to be saved for another thread I fear. China can make their workers, people and society all the poorer for their treatment of them but I refuse to say that is the way forward for those in the west, through our prosperity we should support those at the bottom not build in abuses of them. To take advantage of those who work hardest is the biggest problem with capitalism, it is only compounded by the loosing of welfare rights.

By the way if you want to have a debate about the role of the private sector I think you would be surprised by my views, I am not such an unmovable idealist when it comes to the use of it in providing equality. We have never really debated it properly here so maybe you presume my position rather than know it, I have changed my views quite starkly over the last year and a bit from a complete anti private industry position to a selective use of it position. I have, in effect, been won round somewhat by the New Labour / Gordon Brown train of thought in some areas, how wise that is though is still being debated in my head.