Where is my country going ?

[bmolsson]

The French economy is in a bad state because of the EU.

Only if Bush invented EU......

[Papewaio]

The French economy is suffering because of its protectionist environment.

[doc_bean]

The French economy is suffering because of the large focus on agriculture/agricultural products.

[bmolsson]

The French economy is suffering because of the large focus on agriculture/agricultural products.

It's the bloody Australians that make to good wine and cheese these days...

[doc_bean]

I've never seen/noticed Australian products over here.

South African wine is pretty popular these days.

[Divico]

The French economy is suffering because of the large focus on agriculture/agricultural products.

or because of this ??

annual working hours

USA 1848
Switzerland 1861
Ireland 1842
UK 1710
Italy 1752
Belgium 1720
Germany 1646
Netherlands 1632
France 1580

[doc_bean]

Are those figures per working citizen ?

[King Henry V]

that and the french have the attitude 'lets's strike and then talk" rather let's talk and if things don't work out we'll strike, which is the case in Switzerland where strikes are banned.

[A.Saturnus]

So we're uniting out of a sense of guilt and a sense of fear? A poor reason to force people together is that in the past they have been unable to get on. A bad motive.

Trying to ensure peace is a bad motive? Learning from history is bad? I'm neither driven by guilt nor fear (unlike the far right and far left that fought the constitution) but by the wish to create a place where future generations live together under joined responsibility instead of rivaling interests.

[Al Khalifah]

But surely the EU should not be necessary to ensure peace. The UK and US (for 1 example) have not been to war, but are not in politcal union, save for the U.N which every EU nation is also a member of. To act over-deliberately in an attempt to prevent an event from happening can often be the cause of the event happening itself.

[Papewaio]

or because of this ??

annual working hours

USA 1848
Switzerland 1861
Ireland 1842
UK 1710
Italy 1752
Belgium 1720
Germany 1646
Netherlands 1632
France 1580

What are your sources mine are two years old (http://www.nationmaster.com)

Country Description

Definition: Number of hours worked in 2003; average of all people in employment. Note that different nations use very different practices and definitions in this data field, so comparisons such as this table are tentative at best.

Amount
1. Australia 1814 hours
2. Japan 1801 hours
3. United States 1792 hours
4. Canada 1718 hours
5. United Kingdom 1673 hours
6. Italy 1591 hours
7. Sweden 1564 hours
8. France 1453 hours
9. Norway 1337 hours

[A.Saturnus]

But surely the EU should not be necessary to ensure peace. The UK and US (for 1 example) have not been to war, but are not in politcal union, save for the U.N which every EU nation is also a member of. To act over-deliberately in an attempt to prevent an event from happening can often be the cause of the event happening itself.

The UK and the US did not fight each other for 300 years now. For Germany and France it is only 60 years ago. The EU was created with the intention to ensure peaceful coexistence. Until now, that worked very well. But it is not only the internal peace that matters. A united Europe will have the political force to change something in the world.

[Papewaio]

So the reasons for an EU so far are:
* cheaper goods due to the Euro.
* larger political force due to being united.

If it is to be a positive force of change in the world why not start with that as the basis of the consitution? KISS

[bmolsson]

I think that a primary group should be created in EU. Countries that accept to be more "federate" in the union. Countries like France would be a part, but have less to say. The Schengen and Maasricht agreement as well as the Euro have more or less taken away the right mess around since it opens up economy and immigration between the countries.
The countries that have second thoughts maybe should exit and stay out. I can't see any reason to mess around with the French anymore. Let them be.....

[Divico]

Thats where I found the figures for 2004

http://www.standortschweiz.ch/imperi...nglisch/25.pdf

Another interesting one: time lost due to labor conflicts

http://www.standortschweiz.ch/imperi...nglisch/26.pdf

[bmolsson]

Another interesting one: time lost due to labor conflicts

No Asian countries ??

[Al Khalifah]

I think that a primary group should be created in EU. Countries that accept to be more "federate" in the union. Countries like France would be a part, but have less to say. The Schengen and Maasricht agreement as well as the Euro have more or less taken away the right mess around since it opens up economy and immigration between the countries.

Like the old EEA and the EEC?
Perhaps this is the best way forward. Those nations that want a much more federal Europe could form a more complete union while other nations could choose to remain part of the econmic and trade union, while not having to completely submit to European control. Key issues like defence and taxation would still remain in the hands of the nation state for the second tier members, where as these issues could be handed over to the central European control more and more for the first tier members.
There could even be a third tier of European nations that agree to European rights and standards and are allowed open trade with the rest of Europe, but are under little central control.
This system might allow more gentle integration into the EU for new nations, as well as giving them a chance to prove themselves to the older nations. It would also allow nations to remain independant of total central control if they so wish, although I think this system would slowly pressure nations to join one by one into the higher tier.

Under this system, I expect France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg and Spain would probably enter into the first tier immediately. The rest of the EU nations would probably prefer the second tier, which is pretty much what the EU means now. Third tier nations might include Switzerland, Norway and Turkey - those that treasure their indepedance or those that want to join the EU club.

[Adrian II]

There could even be a third tier of European nations that agree to European rights and standards and are allowed open trade with the rest of Europe, but are under little central control.

That is the present situation, resulting from the successive European treaties so far. The proposed Constition would have reconfirmed those treaties and added the fundament for a 'political' Europe which, if supported by all member states, would have been allowed to gradually take shape according to circumstance and under the increasing control of the European Parliament.

I fear The Netherlands is going to vote 'No' today. But I also trust that we haven't seen the last of the attempt to create a political Europe on the basis of the common democratic and human rights vision, the common market, common currency and drive toward a common foreign policy.

I voted 'Yes' this morning, if only to show that I am not part of the unschooled working class like my dear compatriote Fragony.

[Fragony]

I voted 'Yes' this morning, if only to show that I am not part of the unschooled working class like my dear compatriote Fragony.

I heard that, or did I read it? So many questions! Is it me or is is it something with at least 5 syllabells? It is not nice to pick on the working class you know, it is us after all that make you feel smart in comparison.

we do it all for you you know.

[bmolsson]

Can't be any working class in Holland....

[Al Khalifah]

Is there a crazy 'grass is greener on the other side' mentality in Europe? Every nation seems to think the people of another nation are richer than them.

[A.Saturnus]

Seems there's going to be an Europe wide referendum.

[bmolsson]

As a European, I must say that the socialist streamings around Europe is sometimes scary. Even the bloody monarchs are marxist these days......

[Abokasee]

lets commenism isn't a new goverment or the USA will go all polatical and if that fails then will invade agree with me ?
Just look what happend to russia in the cold war,north korea and north vietnam now do you agree? GOOD!!!

[Meneldil]

Wow, I totally forgot this topic (I was about to go and hang out some communists when I heard the results). I was expecting a lot of bitching and flaming, but apart from a few people I won't name (I'll just quote one of them : "non à la constitution, non à la constitution, non à la constitution",etc. - Notice that he's not even living in a country from EU ), there was an enjoyable discussion.

On ne va tout de même pas se livrer au désespoir. L’avenir est aux jeux sans frontières, Meneldil. Although I have to say this is more than a hiccup for both France and the European Union.

Well, I'm not *that* sad, but I'm quite tired of the impact of the far left and far right on my country.
This was why I was disapointed after the result (I was pretty sure the no would win anyway. A new constitution will be elaborated, with or without France). I'm tired of my country mates being so proud of themselves ("Oh yeah, we had a great debate that will be very very good for europe") while they only shown ignorance, racism and fear.
It's just sick.
In the last 20 years or so, we had only a few good PM (and hence only a few good gvts). The last one, who did a fairly decent job, lost the presidentials thanks to all those far left extremists (all communists achieved a total of more than 10% of the vote). That's blah, but it has always been like that in my country, so I guess it won't change anytime soon.

or because of this ??

annual working hours

USA 1848
Switzerland 1861
Ireland 1842
UK 1710
Italy 1752
Belgium 1720
Germany 1646
Netherlands 1632
France 1580

Nice, but an average french or german worker is much more effective than an average american or japanese worker.

Yet it's true that our productivity is quite being hurt by useless and endless social conflicts. That is a part of our culture since industry appeared in France. Here, it looks like it's all or nothing : either nothing changes or we have a revolution.

(I really should read that damn constitution again to make sure that what I'm saying is right, but let's assume it is until someone proves me wrong )

All what you've said is right.

France, Germany and Italy are currently suffering as a result of being united.

Partly true. I wish we would have our voice over the euro bank, it would probably help to solve the problem. Unhappilly, I fear it is not going to happen.
And that's also because EU is *only* an economical union, with no common policy.

lets commenism isn't a new goverment or the USA will go all polatical and if that fails then will invade agree with me ?
Just look what happend to russia in the cold war,north korea and north vietnam now do you agree? GOOD!!!

So true !



Sorry for digging this old old thread, but I was pleased by most of the answers and thought I had to answer in the topic I've created

[Ldvs]

In the last 20 years or so, we had only a few good PM (and hence only a few good gvts). The last one, who did a fairly decent job, lost the presidentials thanks to all those far left extremists (all communists achieved a total of more than 10% of the vote). That's blah, but it has always been like that in my country, so I guess it won't change anytime soon.

In fact I think it was more due to the French's notorious blindness rather than a vote of confidence towards the far left partisans. Remember how countless people said "Jospin will pass the first round easily, so I'll vote for another one before...". Of course it resulted in Jospin's defeat and (stupid) resignation. How could it be otherwise?

Yet it's true that our productivity is quite being hurt by useless and endless social conflicts. That is a part of our culture since industry appeared in France. Here, it looks like it's all or nothing : either nothing changes or we have a revolution.

French workers are often on strike, indeed, but the English and Americans are crippled by sickness due to overwork, so I guess it compensates