Way to go France!

**doc_bean** · 05-31-2005, 16:46

I think Europe should focus on the free market primarily, that's what's bringing us all together, the political body should only be as powerful as is needed for that purpose. Preferably with less power for the commission. How can things like the Bolkenstein directive, which radically change the way Europe works, be allowed without being passed by Parliament and Council ?

I think the biggest challenge that Europe *must* face in order for the free market to successfully survive is a harmonization of TAV rates.

**Ldvs** · 05-31-2005, 17:17

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Preferably with less power for the commission. How can things like the Bolkenstein directive, which radically change the way Europe works, be allowed without being passed by Parliament and Council ?

Yes, that was scandalous and a bit of that text remains if you looks carefully at the Constitution (Art III-145):

Without prejudice to Subsection 2 relating to freedom of establishment, the person providing a
service may, in order to do so, temporarily pursue his or her activity in the Member State where the
service is provided, under the same conditions as are imposed by that State on its own nationals.

"Temporarily" turns out to be 2 years in France, which means that a Polish (not to blame them again

) employer working in the UK can pay his employees according to Poland's wage basis. No need to tell you it's simply human exploitation. Sadly we just faced such a situation a few weeks ago, when the matter was exposed: France Telecom's supplier was exploiting Portuguese employees...

In my opinion, the biggest challenge would be to harmonize the tax policies towards companies. I daresay it won't be achieved considering how disparate the tax levels are.

**Meneldil** · 05-31-2005, 17:39

"Temporarily" turns out to be 2 years in France, which means that a Polish (not to blame them again ) employer working in the UK can pay his employees according to Poland's wage basis.

Actually, I think the Bolkestein's directive doesn't concern work hours and wages (according to what my teachers told me and to what I read on wikipedia - yeah, there's a whole huge article about the bolkenstein's directive on wikipedia).

The main problem about France is that liberalism is considered as an insult, while socialism is some seen as some kind of great ideological theory (not to speak about communists, who used to have a huge impact on public opinion until the late 80's/early 90's, mainly because of the communist partisan and french revolutionary myth). People in France think that, for example, they have one of the best railroad system because it's owned by the state, while it does in fact quite suck.

First off, Turkophobia hasn't played any part in it and people's dislike toward Chirac a minor one.

Sorry to disagree, but Turkey and Chirac played quite an important role in the referendum. A good part of the people who voted 'no' were from the far right wing, whose main argument was "No to the turkish europe" (while the Constitution was a way to prevent Turkey from entering the EU - and I'm all for turkey to join the EU, as it would, as someone said, show an other way of developement for muslim nations). A lot of people from moderate and far left wings also voted 'No' because they wanted to sack Chirac.
During the TV show that took place a few days before the vote, more than 2.500 people asked questions about Turkey.

**Ldvs** · 05-31-2005, 18:16

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Actually, I think the Bolkestein's directive doesn't concern work hours and wages (according to what my teachers told me and to what I read on wikipedia - yeah, there's a whole huge article about the bolkenstein's directive on wikipedia).

Blatantly I'm mistaken on the name but unfortunately the consequences are the same

Sorry to disagree, but Turkey and Chirac played quite an important role in the referendum. A good part of the people who voted 'no' were from the far right wing, whose main argument was "No to the turkish europe" (while the Constitution was a way to prevent Turkey from entering the EU - and I'm all for turkey to join the EU, as it would, as someone said, show an other way of developement for muslim nations). A lot of people from moderate and far left wings also voted 'No' because they wanted to sack Chirac.
During the TV show that took place a few days before the vote, more than 2.500 people asked questions about Turkey.

I suppose I obliterated the far right and far left supporters from my mind because I don't consider them sensible

Yet, even though Turkey and Chirac have played a role, I still think it's the unreasonable fear of liberalism that sealed the doom of this Constitution.

**PanzerJaeger** · 05-31-2005, 18:43

PJ - you show your lack of knowledge of the situation over here yet again.

Hehe why is that? You may be surprised to know there are many Germans even that feel the way I do about it.

**Stefan the Berserker** · 05-31-2005, 21:59

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Hehe why is that? You may be surprised to know there are many Germans even that feel the way I do about it.

A) The "Non" was a Punishment of Chirac's Gouverment and its reforms to reduce established socialsystems, nothing less and nothing above. In Germany you got simply the same way of thinking about Schroeder's Gouverment.

B) As you call yourself a Facist, I think it is not really necessary to question why you like the "Non".

**A.Saturnus** · 05-31-2005, 23:32

I think Europe should focus on the free market primarily, that's what's bringing us all together, the political body should only be as powerful as is needed for that purpose. Preferably with less power for the commission. How can things like the Bolkenstein directive, which radically change the way Europe works, be allowed without being passed by Parliament and Council ?

As far as I know it didn't. The Council and the Commission and the Parliament are all in favour of the Directive.

**bmolsson** · 06-01-2005, 03:13

France largest problem is the free market and a common currency. The french unions and communists realize this and will do anything in their power to block this. Of course they will take all the money they can in subsidies, but that is always how these political powers work.....

**Ldvs** · 06-01-2005, 07:55

Originally Posted by bmolsson

France largest problem is the free market and a common currency. The french unions and communists realize this and will do anything in their power to block this. Of course they will take all the money they can in subsidies, but that is always how these political powers work.....

Yes, for the French unions and communists the free market is a real problem, but I don't think the common currency bother them much any longer. It caused problems at the beginning because companies exploited this change of currency to raise their prices but it's globally back to normal now.

**doc_bean** · 06-01-2005, 10:15

Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

As far as I know it didn't. The Council and the Commission and the Parliament are all in favour of the Directive.

Well, that's the problem then, we're being governed by idiots. I propose an IQ test for anyone wanting a political function, you must score at least 90

I really don't see how the French could have ever approved that, surely they must have know to what it would lead ?

**bmolsson** · 06-01-2005, 11:04

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Well, that's the problem then, we're being governed by idiots. I propose an IQ test for anyone wanting a political function, you must score at least 90

Well, everyone that tries that will be accused of hindering the democracy. The common public just want to be ruled by idiots.... Nobody mentioned and nobody forgotten.....

**A.Saturnus** · 06-01-2005, 15:13

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Well, that's the problem then, we're being governed by idiots. I propose an IQ test for anyone wanting a political function, you must score at least 90

I really don't see how the French could have ever approved that, surely they must have know to what it would lead ?

Well, at least you know now why you didn't vote conservative in the EU election, don't you?

**Stefan the Berserker** · 06-01-2005, 15:59

Originally Posted by doc_bean

Well, that's the problem then, we're being governed by idiots. I propose an IQ test for anyone wanting a political function, you must score at least 90

I really don't see how the French could have ever approved that, surely they must have know to what it would lead ?

How do you want to test the political-IQ?

Maybe something with Multiple-Choice...

A Member of the Conservative-Faction obtains 20.000 € from Corruption, while a Member of te Socialist-Faction obtains 25.000 € from Corruption. How do you think about it?

A) Socialists are Rats! (1 IQ-Points)
B) They should both be fired! (5 IQ-Points)
C) The Conservative should request more Money. (2 IQ-Points)
D) How much do I get for the Info from BILD? (0 IQ-Points)