'Featureless' Expansion

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I would love to buy an expansion if it actually did anything at all that I think is very interesting. From what has been publicly stated about this one, I have seen absolutely no reason to pay a dime for this one. I'm not a Mr. Negative about it - I've not bought one game since I bought RTW last year, I've been so obsessed with it. But I've seen nothing that modders can't do that interests me in their public releases of it so far.

[Midnight]

I'm another one who's found nothing overly exciting in this. What I'd *really* like is a massive leap in AI, which would make the original game a lot more interesting (I haven't played in ages, a little part of me still hopes the x-pack will make the game what, IMO, it should have been).

I'm going to wait until the x-pack's released, and see what those who do get it are saying after a couple of months. If the AI and original game aren't *seriously* improved, I will not be buying BI.

[Orda Khan]

The vast majority are saying the same thing and I pointed out that I found this quite humourous. I did not blurt out a flippant remark to the negative response that BI has received, I posted my reply because all these posts have been seen before. I find it humourous because the same was said of VI........" I will wait to see what other's think before I buy it "
What has transpired is that most of the community now regard VI as a benchmark.
If we are talking purely real time gameplay, I think I would have to say that MTW v1.0 was my favourite. The v1.1 patch messed up spear units totally and no patch nor the VI expansion fixed them, to the detriment of the game IMO.
I have read countless negative responses to BI and how nothing is going to change. Maybe they are right but only the release of the Expansion and subsequent tests will prove this. I have not been overly impressed with RTW but there are some details that I like very much. I hope that some of the issues will be addressed with BI but there is also a chance that I will be disappointed. I will be buying BI and I am willing to bet that the vast majority, even the negative posters, will be doing likewise....as they have done in the past

......Orda

[Puzz3D]

I have read countless negative responses to BI and how nothing is going to change. Maybe they are right but only the release of the Expansion and subsequent tests will prove this.

It's not going to be me doing the testing. Some of the key programmers who developed the previous game engine no longer work for CA. I doubt that sufficient skill to significantly improve the gameplay exists within CA at this point, and we know that they don't have the resources to do the kind of gameplay testing that such a complicated game requires. At the same time, CA will want to end-of-life RTW/BI quickly.

[Captain Fishpants]

It's not going to be me doing the testing. Some of the key programmers who developed the previous game engine no longer work for CA. I doubt that sufficient skill to significantly improve the gameplay exists within CA at this point, and we know that they don't have the resources to do the kind of gameplay testing that such a complicated game requires. At the same time, CA will want to end-of-life RTW/BI quickly.

This has come as a considerable surprise to the programmers sitting at their desks. After they were told they didn't work here any more, they managed to raise a feeble cheer as they trooped from the building and headed back towards their loved ones.

But seriously, the same people who did STW, MTW and RTW are still here. Please refrain from posting unsubstantiated rumours.

[player1]

This has come as a considerable surprise to the programmers sitting at their desks. After they were told they didn't work here any more, they managed to raise a feeble cheer as they trooped from the building and headed back towards their loved ones.

LOL!

[Puzz3D]

. But seriously, the same people who did STW, MTW and RTW are still here. Please refrain from posting unsubstantiated rumours.

I did't say all the programmers who worked on the previous game engine aren't at CA anymore. Also, RTW isn't the previous game engine.

[Bhruic]

I find it humourous because the same was said of VI........" I will wait to see what other's think before I buy it "
What has transpired is that most of the community now regard VI as a benchmark.

And you don't think that had anything to do with the fact that the VI expansion turned out to be good, and made some changes that the fans really approved of? I'm not sure why you consider the point "most of the community now regard VI as a benchmark" contradicts the "I will wait to see what other's think before I buy it" point. I can't say what happened, because I didn't see sales statistics. But it's entirely possible people did wait to see what other's thought, and the other's thought good things. Therefore, they decided to get it.

If a lot of people are reporting in here about positive improvements to RTW from BI, I will most likely get it myself. What I won't do, however, is go get it simply because it's a TW expansion. Nor will I go get it based on my respect for CA. At this point, I'd need some assurances that they've delivered a quality product before I'd be willing to make that jump.

Bh

[Orda Khan]

It has nothing to do with contradiction at all. I was simply pointing out that the very thing that people expected to be poor was the opposite and the same thing could happen with BI

......Orda

[Teleklos Archelaou]

In the discussion about the new units above, has there been anything to make us think that the unit limits will be lifted? If I say "EB has 250 new units!" or "500 new units!" it doesn't mean we've added 250 or 500 to the vanilla number. If they are dropping some factions in place of other new ones, the "10 new factions!" thing works the same way. Maybe I'm wrong, but if they are just swapping factions or units, then what's the great new achievement? I'll be impressed and would probably buy it if they genuinely increased the faction and unit limits now...

[Orda Khan]

STW had no bugs?
MTW had no bugs?
Please, this is not true.
MTW/VI was a finished article after v2.01? I think not. Not unless you are happy with spears that are worthless. And why were they messed up in the first place? Because the community were not happy that they could beat swords. I saw no problem with 100 spears beating 60 swords but there you go. It seems people do not like the phalanx as it is....yet they were happy with VI spears!?!?
We will soon see what BI is like. My guess is that it will surprise

......Orda

[Shambles]

Dont get me wrong, I beleve rome has Massive potential,
And i did not say that the other 2 were perfect,

But as you can plainly tell I am most definatly happy with the few bugs that they may have,
Where as the masses of bugs in rome lead me to b verry unhappy with it,
I dont disslike the concept,
Neither do i disslike the engine,

I mearly wish to wait untill they have fully grasped the capabilatys of it and are able to utilise them properly,
I to hope that the expantion will be great,
And if it is and works Well enough "i dont expect perfect"
then i will soon change my tune,

But i for 1 will not go out and buy it,
and even if it is flawless I ill wait untill the next game.
simply for the reason that all rome does when its on my pc is eat up valuabale disk space,

[Quietus]

Hey Captain Fishpants,

E3 had come and gone. When are you guys going to release some major Barbarian Invasion preview? Two months before the release and we are still in the dark.

Shambles, RTW is far more complex than Shogun and MTW.

[Puzz3D]

MTW/VI was a finished article after v2.01? I think not. Not unless you are happy with spears that are worthless. And why were they messed up in the first place? Because the community were not happy that they could beat swords. I saw no problem with 100 spears beating 60 swords but there you go. It seems people do not like the phalanx as it is....yet they were happy with VI spears!?!?
We will soon see what BI is like. My guess is that it will surprise.

It's was the upgrade system combined with the cheap swords that caused the breakdown of the RPS in MTW/VI MP. The basic units functioned correctly when not upgraded or if all units were upgraded equally. This isn't the case in RTW where the best cav units defeat the best spear units frontally. RTW had many, many more issues to be patched than the other two games. CA stated publically that they initially put 25 programmers out of a total of 74 on the RTW v1.2 patch effort. It was an effort which ran for 3 months, but there were still outstanding issues which weren't addressed because there was so much to do.

Now BI, which is supposed to be an add-on, has to also be a major patch to RTW, and yet we still see evasiveness from CA about gameplay issues, and I don't mean night battles or beserkers that go out of control. That doesn't instill confidence in me that the gameplay issues will be addressed. Everytime a player raises the issue of historical accuracy or realism someone we hear that gameplay comes first. Ok fine. I'd like to see the commitment to the gameplay because I haven't seen it yet. The basic RPS doesn't work. This has been pointed put to CA with replays which clearly show the problem, and it was done before v1.2 was finished.

CA often falls back on the excuse that they don't have enough time and resources to fix all the issues. That means they don't have the time and resources to make the game into a finished product. This isn't going to change with BI. Maybe the managers at CA will incude more debugging time in the development schedule this time around.

[Spartiate]

I am unhappy with the finished product as released to us but i will also be buying the expansion pack the day it comes out.Maybe i'm lucky that i don't worry about 50 quid or maybe it's because i buy very few games these days so i rarely feel cheated of my cash.I will never buy a resource management AoE/Starcraft/Warcraft type of game again,so for me it's TW games and Space Strats like Homeworld from now on.Since STW i have been hooked on TW and will continue to buy them for the mods that our great .ORG TWC and RTR members are creating if nothing else.

[caesar44]

horse swimming pig eating, night battels afternoon shmatels - i want a better map AI , more options for diplomacy etc , this is a strategic game , dam !

[Yun Dog]

I agree with Orda

Lets not be hasty and say stuff that will make us look like MrNeverHappy whiners. I like Orda remember the angry posts of old, I remember writing one slamming MTW for being STW with more units and not as good. Now people talk of MTW being the benchmark.

On the subject of selective memory, I remember playing STW and listening to the music from Gladiator, and offering my soul if I could play that first battle scene out of the movie, with total immersion in the battle not little sprites wiggling on the screen. When I first played RTW I knew I was headed for eternal damnation!

IMO now we have the engine - the other stuff will come, more strategy, better AI. CA had to first make a game to ensure theirs and the future of the TW series, they did that with RTW.

People whine 'its all about the money' WELL OF COURSE IT IS! what did you think it was about the LOVE, certainly I havent seen much love on the forums in a long long time - if ever. Heres how many games you get created out of love 0.

so in summary - yes RTW has its problems - BUT IT IS MAGNIFICENT!!

I for 1 will be waiting around for the gameplay, AI, and balance elements which Im sure will follow maybe not this expansion, maybe not until RTW2 expansion. And I look forward to enjoying the journey with immersive battles of EPIC proportions.

but see the glass as half empty if you wish, its your choice

[Bhruic]

I for 1 will be waiting around for the gameplay, AI, and balance elements which Im sure will follow maybe not this expansion, maybe not until RTW2 expansion. And I look forward to enjoying the journey with immersive battles of EPIC proportions.

I realize that you were partially responding to the previous post, but I'm not sure if your point is terribly strong. Boiling it down, it seems like you are saying "We've got a good engine, so we shouldn't worry about inadequate gameplay, AI and balance". I'm afraid that's not something I could agree with. And it certainly doesn't sound like a selling point for an expansion.

From the tone of your post, I'm guessing you'll be in the "buy the expansion immediately" crowd? Is there something specific about it that you find appealing, or is it simply the fact that it's a RTW expansion?

Bh

[Divinus Arma]

I don't give a damn what the community says about BI. I'll buy it on day one and come to the conclusion myself.

I Loved MTW.

RTW was a huge improvement, despite the weak AI.

With solid improvements to AI, the RTW engine provides the potential for one of those games that will be remembered forever...

RoN, AoE, C&C, Warcraft, Dune 2000, etc, etc. The faceless "realtime strategy" game has become saturated by copies and duplicates with nothing truly revolutionary. Creative assembly has developed a truly unique concept. Total War, my friends, has broken all the molds and that is why we, the duplicitous TW community, are all bitching and moaning with exuberant gratitude. We bitch because we see the potential.

I'll buy BI, and sadly, I'll also buy Spartan.

da

[vale]

yo, Divinus Arma, you take this stuff too serioully. I agree with you that the CA team created a game engine that something are revolutionize the entire experience a strategy gamer point of view. CA rtw engine certainly is a fine piece of work that you can't find it in other game out there. first time I played rome total war, it complete engross me into it enhanced game engine and details that other can't compete with. As those are our point of view how a game should be like other have their own point of views as well. Sure the game engine allow me to experience what I've never experience before with other pc strategy game; however, there are more areas that CA need to focus on as well. For example the relationship system still fall behind it new revolutionize game engine. The wish and desire of a person can't never run out so you can complain and whinning all you want, it is the same complain and whinning that will win you your satisfaction. Cause if there is demand I am sure there is supply.

[Shambles]

Im sad that people say They will rush out and buy the expantion instantly,

Its like CA can do no wrong,
They can release shoddy games which are unfinishedd and Full fo bugs,
Then instead of releasing a patch to fix them,
They can just watch all the lemmings march off to the store to Buy the exapantion Just to fix there inital mistakes,

This will just prove to ca That they are able to rip off people in this manner time and time again,

They can just make a crap game full of bugs sell it for £50 then, make an expantion to fix the flaws and sell that for £50 as well

Personally I will not be buying there expantion, as the Game isnt good enough to begin with,

AOE
STW
MTW
were all Great games in the begining,
And there expantions just prolonged the games life span,

Where as RTW is vitualy unplayable in single player,
and the expantion is there to fix there mistakes,
and add some units, and a few campaigns
This is just not right,

Had they relased a patch to fix the bugs and made the game playable,
I would then consider buying the expantion,
But i refuse to bow down to any faceless corporation demanding more money from me to fix a problem they more than likley left in on purpous to force people to buy there new and improved expantion

And i bet The AI will be just as moronic leaving the expantion Just as unplayable as the origional,

Personally I will wait untill they have released 2 or 3 more games using this engine.
So they actualy figured out how to utilise it properly,
becous at the moment They havent got a clue.

Not playing rome Has not been a loss to me, Obviously i lost £50 paying for the dumb game,
But STW & MTW are still better, So i have lost nothing in terms of game play and fun,
And not buying the expantion just means I dont need to reinstall an unfinished bug filled game that CA Rushed out just to get some revenue,

ShambleS

[Yun Dog]

From the tone of your post, I'm guessing you'll be in the "buy the expansion immediately" crowd? Is there something specific about it that you find appealing, or is it simply the fact that it's a RTW expansion?

Bh

Yes immediately, because its a RTW expansion, more units, more campaigns what more would you want from an expansion.

Look at the AOE expansions, more units, more campaigns. I cant actually think of an expansion that radically changed the original game engine.

I see it more as a perspective thing I could choose to dwell on the problems with the game, and let that destroy any further fun I mightve had playing it, or be positive about the huge changes in the game, how it has been a transformation of the total war game series, and be hopeful that gameplay and strategy elements will be tweaked over time.

As Divinus says we are disappointed because we want it all and now, and we see the potential for realising a long time gaming dream.

If you love MTW more play that and be happy, but whining about an expansion not yet released is a little premature - dont worry - therell be plenty of time and opportunity for whining once the expansion hits the shelves.

[irishron2004]

I have read Shogun's responses to have my own opinion on this matter. From what I read, BI is still BS. I have no reason to purchase with these sales pitches. Without further attention to the things that matter to these sites that have supported RTW and the subsequent mods, I, right now do not think this sales pitch will sell very many. Probably won't pay the bills.

[Midnight]

ian_of_smegs16 - I have to disagree. The 'whole point' of RTW is not, or at least should not be, to look 'good'. It should be to provide a damn good game, a step up from MTW in terms of graphics, and at least MTW's quality in terms of gameplay (preferable higher, since the developers have had time between games to think and listen to the fans).

So far, the graphics are good, but IMO it's been a real triumph of style over substance (wow, what a cliche!).

[Ianofsmeg16]

ian_of_smegs16 - I have to disagree. The 'whole point' of RTW is not, or at least should not be, to look 'good'. It should be to provide a damn good game, a step up from MTW in terms of graphics, and at least MTW's quality in terms of gameplay (preferable higher, since the developers have had time between games to think and listen to the fans).

So far, the graphics are good, but IMO it's been a real triumph of style over substance (wow, what a cliche!).

OK OK i'll fold, ONE of the major points of R:TW was to look better than any other strategy game ever. And you gotta agree with what i said about the 108 cataphracts charging 1000 easants and routing them (taken from one of my own battles) and looking so good as they do it, do you agree?

[Mongoose]

OK OK i'll fold, ONE of the major points of R:TW was to look better than any other strategy game ever. And you gotta agree with what i said about the 108 cataphracts charging 1000 easants and routing them (taken from one of my own battles) and looking so good as they do it, do you agree?

NO! I m tierd of seeing uber cavalry charge through pikeman/heavy infantry!
i would prefer MTW style graphics if it meant better AI/less unbalanced cav.

sure, you can mod it but that screws up the AI, which still trys to charge head first into the pikemen...

That and the AI-led all peltast armys...

And another thing, will RTW look good in one year? no. Will a game with good gameplay be fun in one year? yes.

Just letting off some steam i hope the XPAC solves some of these issues

[Ianofsmeg16]

NO! I m tierd of seeing uber cavalry charge through pikeman/heavy infantry!
i would prefer MTW style graphics if it meant better AI/less unbalanced cav.

sure, you can mod it but that screws up the AI, which still trys to charge head first into the pikemen...

That and the AI-led all peltast armys...

And another thing, will RTW look good in one year? no. Will a game with good gameplay be fun in one year? yes.

Just letting off some steam i hope the XPAC solves some of these issues

Cowers in front of the mighty mongoose

[Midnight]

Probably the reason my favourite games are SMAC, Ultima 7 and Planescape: Torment. All look ancient, now, but all deliver excellent gameplay. Ultima 7 has an amazing world, Planescape I returned to several times because there was so much to discover, and the replayability of SMAC means I'm still playing games of it, and probably will until (or even after) Civ4 comes out.

RTW just doesn't do it for me as is. I desperately want it to with BI, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Mongoose]

Cowers in front of the mighty mongoose

thanks! It is very hard to get people to cower from me, seeing as they shadow over me!

Err, i mean...



against the might of mongoose there can be no victory, only pain and suffering

I hope the XPAC will make some good changes to the AI, because most of the other problems with the game can be modded

[SigniferOne]

Wow what a great preview, it really excites you to go out and play the game :) Also the features they mention seem rather promising to me, such as two new infantry formations! Finally a shield wall, for all you barbarian lovers, even though it's 500 years too early.