'Featureless' Expansion

[magnum]

LOL. reading several of the posts here have given me a chuckle. I've played STW, MTW and RTW (along with their expansions) since they each came out. When you've been reading these boards and others for that long you realize that what people today are saying about RTW is pretty much the same as what people were saying about MTW when they were waiting for the expansion. Same is true about what people were saying about STW while waiting for its expansion. I'd expect that when CA comes out with the next TW game, people will then be saying about it what they are now saying about RTW. The difference is that they'll most likely be saying "X:TW isn't nearly as finished as STW, MTW and RTW were. They were good games...."

Personally, I'll look towards CA's track record with the TW game series, as well as their expansions, to base my expectations of RTW:BI. If people take the time to look back over the series as a whole, they'll realize that CA has been remarkably consistent in what/how they've done things. How many patches, when they occur, what type of things get changed/improved in the expansion, etc. So far I've been happy. Have all of TW games been perfect? Nope, every one of them has had things that I'd have liked to be different, and I'll happily post that I'd like to see such-and-such change. But the bottom line is I've yet to see anyone else put out a game in TW category that comes close.

Oh, and I can remember people calling VI as a featureless expansion also. Seems that people have changed their mind now...

[lars573]

There's a saying, hind sight is 20/20. The difference is VI is out and BI isn't. VI is a known quantity, BI isn't. VI added many good things to MTW, BI will probably do the same for RTW.

[Shambles]

i think people are just sick of reading the same thing everytime you make a post, youve had your say, and we all have probably got most of it memorized by now. maybe you should spend more time in the stw and mtw forums, as i think you`ll get less worked up in there.

I dont get worked up over this issue,
but it seems my points hit a nerve with you,
prehaps you are the one who should not come here and not I
as it is indeed you who is being worked up.

If your happy to throw your money away on unfinished products then so be it,


However i dont beleve you should be giving 1st time buyers the wrong impression about this game,
and the lack of suport for end users.
Neither Should you be allowing activision and ca the right to release un finished games without needing to patch them

I blame ca as they never released more than v102 when ea published STW and now sega are rumored to take over,

Now we all know EA are buying up almost every game there is,
So why are people throwing Total war around like a hot potato, if CA are so Great,
If they havent got the time to finish the game,
Then they should not release it,
Or they should have the decency to patch the game.

I cant blame the publishers as they have released many great games,
Ea have released many great games, So have activision.
And they patch them relitivly well
(not that most of there games usualy need a patch)
I guess ca need to work harder or something,
Becous if sega get the games then say they dont want them,
Who will?

[Wishazu]

Thats a very mature response from you Shambles. Also, the only thing working me up is your terrible spelling and grammar. Say what you like about Rome mate, however please try and vary your responses to members posts as repeating yourself over and over again will not somehow magically make your opinion correct and everyone elses wrong.

[Shambles]

Thats a very mature response from you Shambles. Also, the only thing working me up is your terrible spelling and grammar.

Insults :)
I see your reasoning skills fail you my freind,

And what do you have to say about the fact that no 1 seems to want the total war games?

EDIT,
I see you have added more to your post,

And in responce i say,

You re-itterating the same things will now make you correct and every 1 els wrong?

You cannot be hypocritical about this my freind,
You are Doing the same as me only from the opposit side of the fence

[Wishazu]

insults??? i cant see any. all i can see is a comment on your poor spelling etc. like i said, maybe you should return to the stw forums or wherever, instead of feeling the need to react to every opinion that is counter to your own. Anyways, ive made my point and i cant be bothered to spam this topic by replying to everything you say. Laterz.

[Shambles]

insults??? i cant see any. all i can see is a comment on your poor spelling etc. like i said, maybe you should return to the stw forums or wherever, instead of feeling the need to react to every opinion that is counter to your own. Anyways, ive made my point and i cant be bothered to spam this topic by replying to everything you say. Laterz.

And this is not a reaction?

Pardon me my freind But you seem to be getting terribly worked up over this issue and prehaps you should take a break

By the way ,
If you do have some thing constructive to say
Why dont you reply to my initial remark of Ea not wanting the game And now sega being rumorerd to take over from activision,
And the fact that CA are being tossed around like a proverbial hot potato,

of cours you could keep throwing verbal abuse my way In futher proof that you are indeed being worked up over this matter,
and there for your inital comment of Leaving this forum as you are getting worked up about it,
Is in deed best directed at your self,
(you made no point my freind You mearly wound your self up did not answer 1 question deviated from the matter at hand and tried underhanded insults)


But I would like some one to explain to my Why EA (a company buying up Almost ALL games Would not keep hold of the total war games)
And why now is activison also rumored to be giving way to sega,
also How can people blame activision for the short number of patches if STW receved the same amount and then Ca were publishing there game through EA

ShambleS

[Lord Preston]

shambles. it is clear to me you have no idea how the game industry / computing world works.

you keep saying how programs are unfinished, they are not unfinished, quite often in large complex programs (such as i am sure R:TW engine is) it will not get fully tested until done by many people.

they also have a time period set to create these programs, usually there will assign some time to test and fix any issues but with new engines this might not be enough. Other games such as Raven Shield use existing engines (Unreal engine) which is used in many games so has been fixed.

technology in the computing world has a lifespan, if CA waited until the game engine was perfect and EVERYONE was happy with it, the technology could of been outdated, causing them too lose lots of money, risking the employees jobs and the future products they could make with the revenue.

Also it is common for programmers to leave the employment of a company, often they will leave for a better position at another company or will of completed a masters degree ect so will move on to that field.

So please, learn about the industry before you critise and "inform" them of the release from the company.

[Shambles]

shambles. it is clear to me you have no idea how the game industry / computing world works.

you keep saying how programs are unfinished, they are not unfinished, quite often in large complex programs (such as i am sure R:TW engine is) it will not get fully tested until done by many people.

they also have a time period set to create these programs, usually there will assign some time to test and fix any issues but with new engines this might not be enough. Other games such as Raven Shield use existing engines (Unreal engine) which is used in many games so has been fixed.

technology in the computing world has a lifespan, if CA waited until the game engine was perfect and EVERYONE was happy with it, the technology could of been outdated, causing them too lose lots of money, risking the employees jobs and the future products they could make with the revenue.

Also it is common for programmers to leave the employment of a company, often they will leave for a better position at another company or will of completed a masters degree ect so will move on to that field.

So please, learn about the industry before you critise and "inform" them of the release from the company.

I see you make no mention of patches,
A concept That Most people who frequent the internet would be familiar with.

You release a game,
You find a problem
You release a patch,
You find a problem
you releas a patch
and you keep doing this
Untill finaly there are no problems,

This is true for hardware and software,
Some 1 must not have mentioned this to ca

And that is The problem that needs to be adressed

and before you blame it on activision,
I doubt that EA and activison have the exact same policy on patches,
Also,
could you address the point in the above topic Of how people are throwing ca back and forth like a hot potato.
with Sega being next in line to catch it,

I keep saying Rome has Massive potential,
But unfortunaltly ca Only care about revenu,
They dont care if the game works properly or not,
and refuse to release patches,
You cant seriosly blame Activision as i have never had this complaint with them in the past,

ShambleS

[Bigfootedfred]

theres night battles in rtw 1.2. custom battle advanced options

An interesting point.
but this is not quite the same.

in BI, Formations will be holding lighted torches, and it will actually be dark, if the screens i have seen are anything to go by.

this is different to the current night battles where it is actually more, evening than night.


on the topic of the original post.

i do not think the expansion is "featureless" in fact with the inclusion of varying victory scenarios. The empire split in two, and plenty of variety within the barbarian factions.

i would say its far from featureless.

you take over the Romana british, and try to fight of the saxons.
you can try to save the western empire.
you take the eastern empire and reconquer all that was lost.

you could take the huns, and rampage across europe.

which brings me to antihero point, i really hope they include small historical campaigns, like that of MTW, where you fight a series of historical battles.

with the additions of variable victory conditions, i see a VERY bright modding future for RTW.

[Lord Preston]

patches

the attempts to fix bugs that have been found since release.

i myself write programs that are no where near as complex as R:TW, even the best designed programs can have unforseen problems until it is tested and released.

Some problems can be fixed with a simple change in the code, a bracket here or there, re-ordering code ect. but some require massive changes in scripts, which then could create new problems elsewhere.

hence if a "bug" is not MAJOR (ie. affects the game hugely) but requires lots of code change it is not worth the risk of creating new problems.

there are a lot of bugs, but most are not MAJOR, hence the number of changes needed could create even more problems. i have no problem with CA taking there time addressing these, maybe developing the R:TW engine for a future game.

i think you expect too much from R:TW and should stop slagging it off and appreciate what it does. for all the bugs its works well, it has many more features compared to other games, the number of stats and comparisons it has to do

MOST of them work well.

think of a game like Championship Manager, all those stats and equations, then tell them to create a graphics engine and they would of laughed. for the size of the project R:TW was its was WELL DONE! and can only get better

EDIT: can someone disable his edit feature?!?!? every post gets changed...... my post still answers it though

[Shambles]

I do not change my post I mearly re word it ,
And you seem to hold many of the same ideas as I do,

I also say the Rome total war engine has huge potential.
And in deed i Look forward to future games,

Just as you do,

I also beleve rome total war can only get better (lets face it it cant get much worse)
However i do not beleve it was well done,

I also write scripts and make some basic games so I know exactly what you mean,
Some bugs can be buerried under Piles of code and almost impossible to find,
This would mean i would haft to re write everything,
So i dont bother,
Having said this,
I dont make millions out of my games and in fact i dont make 1 penny,
so why should I
Where as ca do make money and ther for should take the time to release a patch,
If they have the time and revenu to fix the problems in an expantion,
this blows your reasoning out of the water,

However,

I do not see this conversation geting very far,
And i also do not know why i bother,

Its your money.
Do with it what you please,
But if you are unhappy with what you buy,
I do not expect to see you complaning.
Where as I on the other hand Will Be saying things like,
I told you so,

I really do hope the xp is as Great as every 1 hopes,
In fact i hope its as great as I wish it to be "that would not be perfect"

But it would mean,
All the bugs would be adressed.
CA adopt a more realistic patching policy.
and that Finaly I get a game that dosent imedatly get religated to The "unwanted" pile,

So I really do hope this game comes out as good as you all hope if not better,
And you can all tell me so when you buy it,
And i will honestly be happy for you,


p.s
Try to imagine how many posts there would be if i did not Edit my posts my freind.

not only do i correct my wording .
But i also address new things that i have just read after other people edited,

And by the way,
A good way of knowing if im done editing is to look out for my name at the bottom,
I do not add that untill done
---------------------------
ShambleS

[Bigfootedfred]

i havent read the entire thread but i presume we came to bugs and glithes, as this is a converstion about the expansion, and it is widely hoped that the expansion will fix alot of the bugs in the game.

CA will not release antoher patch for RTW.
they have stated this many times.

hopefully the expansion, and possibly the patch for the expansion will clear most things up.

it was the same back in the days of MTW, viking invasion "finished" MTW, it completed it.

im am certain BI will do the same for RTW

[Lord Preston]

you do not re-word. your post about patches went from one line to a essay.

you over estimate the money they makes on games, no doubt they made a lot of money but R:TW was first drempt up at the shogun time. this is a huge development time

the company also makes other games, which arn't so successful, some i might say flop, and lose money, the major games have to cover this, it also has to cover advertisement, production, employees wages. not just programmers wages but marketing other employees.

illegal version are also a increasing problem, revenue from games has dropped due to the availability of "cracked" versions about. creating new problems for programs who have to develop ways to try to prevent this. taking valueble programming time away from the actual game.

all of these peoples jobs are on the line so to say that they should just keep fixing a game until it is "perfect" and everyone is happy is laughable. you are asking a company to hold other developments, risking there future products success, how often do you see a "new" game come out but looks like a game from 1 or 2 years ago and does nothing new... this is what you are asking them to do.

i can not be bothered trying to explain this to you anymore. you are in your own world and refuse to accept the reality of the gaming world. you blame money grabbing companies, well i know of pleanty of companies that have gone bust due to not keeping up with technology.

finding a balance is the key, they addressed problems and have then moved on to the next product. hopefully that product will have addressed the problems discovered in the old one, to create perfect games first time, on time is a dream.

EDIT: and he edits it again.... suprise suprise. this is my last post on this discussion, CA have took too much slating from people who do not understand the industry. if they refuse to accept the reality that is there problem

use preview, then post instead of editing after people have replied.
good day to you all

[Quietus]

Ea not wanting the game And now sega being rumorerd to take over from activision,
And the fact that CA are being tossed around like a proverbial hot potato

Actually, CA switched to Activision from EA, not the other way around. Same way CA negotiated to be bought by SEGA.

[Shambles]

Actually, CA switched to Activision from EA, not the other way around. Same way CA negotiated to be bought by SEGA.

Thank you very much,

I stand corrected,

ShambleS

[Spartiate]

I'm not sure why guys............but i'm just dying for a hot potato with fresh butter and maybe some coleslaw...............yes..........coleslaw............mmm

[hotingzilla]

I don't agree that the products from CA are unfinished. But I understand when you feel you have wasted your hard-earned money on something that isn't what you expected.

However, the developers cannot truly make a game perfect and free of bugs. It is simply impossible.

[lars573]

Also speaking pure in from a fiscal stand point, there is a time when patching a game is not worth it any more. CA obviously limits the time and resources they are willing to commit to their games.

[Bhruic]

However, the developers cannot truly make a game perfect and free of bugs. It is simply impossible.

I see this statement a lot, but find it to be a bit of a strawman. I don't think anyone is suggesting that one can make a perfect, bug-free game. There are degrees of completeness, however, that can be used to measure how close the game is to the mythical mark.

Take Dungeon Lords for example. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the game, but a quick google will likely lead you to some reviews. The game was released in such an unpolished state that it's a wonder it actually is being sold. The game is an RPG, so these days, one would expect a large 'immersion' factor. But it's lacking in that regard. Inns without furniture. Towns with 6 or 7 people. It's just not well done.

Now, if I were to make the statement above about this game, what would I accomplish? Would the fact that one can't make a perfect, bug-free game excuse the fact that Dungeon Lords is riddled with bugs, and is completely lacking in immersion? Would it put the game into the same category as RTW?

I'd say not, and I'd hope you would as well. The completeness of a game is a sliding scale. Some games are more complete, some are less. I personally think that RTW isn't as far along as it should have been, but it's certainly farther along than Dungeon Lords. You may think it's far enough along, which is fine. That's where subjective opinion enters in. But trying to excuse the game using the "it can't be perfect" line isn't going to render your opinion accurate, or make mine inaccurate.

Bh

[Ianofsmeg16]

I do not see this conversation geting very far,
And i also do not know why i bother,

Its your money.
Do with it what you please,
But if you are unhappy with what you buy,
I do not expect to see you complaning.
Where as I on the other hand Will Be saying things like,
I told you so,

I really do hope the xp is as Great as every 1 hopes,
In fact i hope its as great as I wish it to be "that would not be perfect"



---------------------------
ShambleS

Totally agree with you mate, don't want it? don't buy it. IMO the xp IS going to be great because it is going to add alot of new stuff to an already great game, and rome IS great, c'mon, what other game could you be part of a cataphract unit of 108 men charging 1000 peasants, routing them in a flash and mopping them all up with you lances. Sure the game has bugs, but what game hasnt? the whole point of R:TW is to look good, to look better than any other strategy game out there and I personally think it suceeded

[professorspatula]

There are a few things mentioned in the expansion pack that appeals to me, although some of the 'new features' look like they were left out of the actual game before its release: night battles, shield walls, hordes etc. There's either text references to them, or sound files already. Leave stuff out, claim it's new and brown-nosing games journalists will drool all over the features in one of their 'exclusive and not at all biased previews'.

What annoys me, and many others it seems is the way CA seem to nonchalantly brush aside many of the concerns and criticisms of RTW as if they were completely unimportant or impossible to implement in the engine. Bah. If battle speeds and morale haven't been given an overhaul (and it sounds like they haven't), it's going to be several hours/days of modding just to make the expansion playable.

I'll really be annoyed if siege battles haven't received a massive reworking though. Nine out of ten battles aren't worth the effort to play.

I suppose no-one expects miracles from just an expansion pack, but with enough nods in the right direction, I reckon it's worth a purchase. That is providing of course, that it is priced reasonably. The recent expansion pack for Doom 3 was a ridiculous price - practically the price of a brand new game, and all it adds is more of the same. If BI is priced similiarly, think I'll shove a couple of fingers up in the publisher's direction and spend the money on booze instead.

Pint anyone?

[irishron2004]

I have read Shogun's responses to have my own opinion on this matter. From what I read, BI is still BS. I have no reason to purchase with these sales pitches. Without further attention to the things that matter to these sites that have supported RTW and the subsequent mods, I, right now do not think this sales pitch will sell very many. Probably won't pay the bills.

[Midnight]

ian_of_smegs16 - I have to disagree. The 'whole point' of RTW is not, or at least should not be, to look 'good'. It should be to provide a damn good game, a step up from MTW in terms of graphics, and at least MTW's quality in terms of gameplay (preferable higher, since the developers have had time between games to think and listen to the fans).

So far, the graphics are good, but IMO it's been a real triumph of style over substance (wow, what a cliche!).

[hotingzilla]

I'd say not, and I'd hope you would as well. The completeness of a game is a sliding scale. Some games are more complete, some are less. I personally think that RTW isn't as far along as it should have been, but it's certainly farther along than Dungeon Lords. You may think it's far enough along, which is fine. That's where subjective opinion enters in. But trying to excuse the game using the "it can't be perfect" line isn't going to render your opinion accurate, or make mine inaccurate.

Bh

I understand what you mean, and it is crucial to have people criticizing the games and always asking for more, it urges the developers to raise the par and input more effort into the game.

However, if the expak comes out just as you expect now, would you boycott the expack and radically all of CA's products?

[Ianofsmeg16]

ian_of_smegs16 - I have to disagree. The 'whole point' of RTW is not, or at least should not be, to look 'good'. It should be to provide a damn good game, a step up from MTW in terms of graphics, and at least MTW's quality in terms of gameplay (preferable higher, since the developers have had time between games to think and listen to the fans).

So far, the graphics are good, but IMO it's been a real triumph of style over substance (wow, what a cliche!).

OK OK i'll fold, ONE of the major points of R:TW was to look better than any other strategy game ever. And you gotta agree with what i said about the 108 cataphracts charging 1000 easants and routing them (taken from one of my own battles) and looking so good as they do it, do you agree?

[Bhruic]

However, if the expak comes out just as you expect now, would you boycott the expack and radically all of CA's products?

I would probably only boycott a company if they were engaging in highly unethical behaviour. The chances of CA doing something that unethical seems extremely unlikely to me.

There are some companies that I'm willing to buy their products "sight unseen", so to speak, based simply on their reputation. For example, I've been highly satisified with all of the products from Bioware, so when they put out a game, I generally don't stop to read reviews and such, I buy the game based on the respect their previous games have earned.

CA used to be in that category. After my disappointment with RTW, they aren't anymore. That doesn't mean I think they are a bad company. It just means that I've lost the high level of respect that I used to have for them and their games. I will continue to look at any game they make, and evaluate if it's something I'm interested in. But I won't buy another product based simply on their name.

Bh

[player1]

Well, reading the Heaven Games previes of BI, I can't hardly say it's featureless...

[Mongoose]

OK OK i'll fold, ONE of the major points of R:TW was to look better than any other strategy game ever. And you gotta agree with what i said about the 108 cataphracts charging 1000 easants and routing them (taken from one of my own battles) and looking so good as they do it, do you agree?

NO! I m tierd of seeing uber cavalry charge through pikeman/heavy infantry!
i would prefer MTW style graphics if it meant better AI/less unbalanced cav.

sure, you can mod it but that screws up the AI, which still trys to charge head first into the pikemen...

That and the AI-led all peltast armys...

And another thing, will RTW look good in one year? no. Will a game with good gameplay be fun in one year? yes.

Just letting off some steam i hope the XPAC solves some of these issues

[Ianofsmeg16]

NO! I m tierd of seeing uber cavalry charge through pikeman/heavy infantry!
i would prefer MTW style graphics if it meant better AI/less unbalanced cav.

sure, you can mod it but that screws up the AI, which still trys to charge head first into the pikemen...

That and the AI-led all peltast armys...

And another thing, will RTW look good in one year? no. Will a game with good gameplay be fun in one year? yes.

Just letting off some steam i hope the XPAC solves some of these issues

Cowers in front of the mighty mongoose