Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 31

Thread: Chávez leads the way

  1. #1
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    London, England.
    Posts
    11,058

    Default Chávez leads the way

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...495260,00.html

    Chávez leads the way

    In using oil wealth to help the poor, Venezuela's leader is an example to Latin America


    Richard Gott in Caracas
    Monday May 30, 2005
    The Guardian

    A muddy path leads off the airport motorway into one of the small impoverished villages that perch on the hills above Caracas, a permanent reminder of the immense gulf between rich and poor that characterises oil-rich Venezuela. Only 20 minutes from the heart of the capital city a tiny community of 500 families lives in makeshift dwellings with tin roofs and rough breeze-block walls. They have water and electricity and television, but not much else. The old school buildings have collapsed into ruin, and no children have received lessons over the past two years.

    Two Cuban doctors are established in a temporary surgery here on the main track. They point out that preventative medicine is difficult to practise in a zone where the old clay sewer pipes are cracked and useless, leaving the effluent to flow unchecked down the hillside. The older inhabitants have been here for years; they first came from the country to take root on these steep hillsides in the 1960s. Many are morose and despairing, unable to imagine that their lives could ever change.

    Others are more motivated and upbeat, and have enrolled in the ranks of the Bolivarian revolution of President Hugo Chávez. They expect great things from this government, and are mobilised to demand that official attention be focused on their village. If their petition to the mayor to repair their school and sewer pipes does not get answered soon, they will descend from their mountain eyrie to block the motorway, as they once did before during the attempted coup d'état of April 2002.

    Hundreds of similar shanty towns surround Caracas, and many have already begun to turn the corner. In some places, the doctors brought in from Cuba are working in newly built premises, providing eye treatment and dentistry as well as medicines. Nearly 20,000 doctors are now spread around this country of 25 million people. New supermarkets have sprung up where food, much of it home-produced, is available at subsidised prices. Classrooms have been built where school dropouts are corralled back into study. Yet it is good to start with the difficulties faced by the motorway village, since its plight serves to emphasise how long and difficult is the road ahead. "Making poverty history" in Venezuela is not a simple matter of making money available; it involves a revolutionary process of destroying ancient institutions that stand in the way of progress, and creating new ones responsive to popular demands.

    Something amazing has been taking place in Latin America in recent years that deserves wider attention than the continent has been accustomed to attract. The chrysalis of the Venezuelan revolution led by Chávez, often attacked and derided as the incoherent vision of an authoritarian leader, has finally emerged as a resplendent butterfly whose image and example will radiate for decades to come.

    Most of the reports about this revolution over the past six years, at home and abroad, have been uniquely hostile, heavily influenced by politicians and journalists associated with the opposition. It is as if news of the French or the Russian revolutions had been supplied solely by the courtiers of the king and the tsar. These criticisms have been echoed by senior US figures, from the president downwards, creating a negative framework within which the revolution has inevitably been viewed. At best, Chávez is seen as outdated and populist. At worst, he is considered a military dictator in the making.

    Yet the wheel of history rolls on, and the atmosphere in Venezuela has changed dramatically since last year when Chávez won yet another overwhelming victory at the polls. The once triumphalist opposition has retired bruised to its tent, wounded perhaps mortally by the outcome of the referendum on Chávez's presidency that it called for and then resoundingly lost. The viciously hostile media has calmed down, and those who don't like Chávez have abandoned their hopes of his immediate overthrow. No one is any doubt that he will win next year's presidential election.

    The Chávez government, for its part, has forged ahead with various spectacular social projects, assisted by the huge jump in oil prices, from $10 to $50 a barrel over the past six years. Instead of gushing into the coffers of the already wealthy, the oil pipelines have been picked up and directed into the shanty towns, funding health, education and cheap food. Foreign leaders from Spain and Brazil, Chile and Cuba, have come on pilgrimage to Caracas to establish links with the man now perceived as the leader of new emerging forces in Latin America, with popularity ratings to match. This extensive external support has stymied the plans of the US government to rally the countries of Latin America against Venezuela. They are not listening, and Washington is left without a policy.

    Chávez himself, a youthful former army colonel of 51, is now perceived in Latin America as the most unusual and original political figure to have emerged since Fidel Castro broke on to the scene nearly 50 years ago. With huge charm and charisma, he has an infinite capacity to relate to the poor and marginal population of the continent. A largely self-educated intellectual, the ideology of his Bolivarian revolution is based on the writings and actions of a handful of exemplary figures from the 19th century, most notably Simón Bolívar, the man who liberated most of South America from Spanish rule. Chávez offers a cultural as well as a political alternative to the prevailing US-inspired model that dominates Latin America.

    So, what does his Bolivarian revolution consist of? He is friendly with Castro - indeed, they are close allies - yet he is no out-of-fashion state socialist. Capitalism is alive and well in Venezuela - and secure. There have been no illegal land seizures, no nationalisations of private companies. Chávez seeks to curb the excesses of what he terms "savage neo-liberalism", and he wants the state to play an intelligent and enabling role in the economy, but he has no desire to crush small businesses, as has happened in Cuba. International oil companies have fallen over themselves to provide fresh investment, even after the government increased the royalties that they have to pay. Venezuela remains a golden goose that cannot be ignored.

    What is undoubtedly old fashioned about Chávez is his ability to talk about race and class, subjects once fashionable that have long been taboo, and to discuss them in the context of poverty. In much of Latin America, particularly in the countries of the Andes, the long-suppressed native peoples have begun to organise and make political demands for the first time since the 18th century, and Chávez is the first president in the continent to have picked up their banner and made it his own.

    For the past six years the government has moved ahead at a glacial rate, balked at every turn by the opposition forces ranged against it. Now, as the revolution gathers speed, attention will be directed towards dissension and arguments within the government's ranks, and to the ever-present question of delivery. In the absence of powerful state institutions, with the collapse of the old political parties and the survival of a weak, incompetent and unmotivated bureaucracy, Chávez has mobilised the military from which he springs to provide the backbone to his revolutionary reorganisation of the country. Its success in bringing adequate services to the shanty towns in town and country will depend upon the survival of his government. If it fails, the people will come out to block the motorway and demand something different, and yet more radical.

    · Richard Gott's book Hugo Chávez and the Bolivarian Revolution will be published by Verso in June
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  2. #2
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Looks interesting, I wonder what a more neutral news source has to say.

    However based at face value this is a glowing report and a step forwards.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  3. #3
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    I'm not terribly surprised Chavez's propaganda machine says good things about him.

    (And no, I'm not saying the Gaurdian is on his payroll (they're stupid enough to do it for free) but do you really think the journalist got to see the real story? Or are you deluded by any dictator that says 'socialism'?)

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  4. #4
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Or are you deluded by any dictator that says 'socialism'?)
    Why don't we wait till his does something dictatorial before we brad him a 'dictator'. The guy is doing some great things and as always the US is trying to stop him.

    Do we so easily forget, the same thing hapened in Chile in the 70's with their socialist president Allende who was was killed in a coup payrolled by the US to get Pinochet(yes him! The guy in the war crimes trials) in power.The result was a sharp decline in economy and thousands of people thrown out plane's into the ocean or in the andes, never to be found. Yeah the US hate dictatorships.

    I really hope this doesn't hapen Chavez. Can you imagine another (US backed) brutal dictatorship after that?

  5. #5
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    London, England.
    Posts
    11,058

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    I'm not terribly surprised Chavez's propaganda machine says good things about him.

    (And no, I'm not saying the Gaurdian is on his payroll (they're stupid enough to do it for free) but do you really think the journalist got to see the real story? Or are you deluded by any dictator that says 'socialism'?)

    Crazed Rabbit
    Stated by someone who believs he is a dictator purely because some powerful govts and media stations scream it.

    The reality destroys your case, you just can't bear to think that a lefty elected govt could improve the lives of so many so quickly.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  6. #6

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    We really need to get somebody down there to take care of this guy.. Hes sitting on way too much oil to be a socialist.

  7. #7
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Its almost amusing to see how right-wingers go nuts over this, its like they cant stand the reality that a socialist can improve a country.
    It could be tho, that right-wingers dont give a crap about the people of Venezuela and only fears that it might have an impact on their wealthy lifes.
    Could be since Solidarity aint something the right-wingers talk much about.

    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  8. #8
    Slapshooter Senior Member el_slapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Taverny, France
    Posts
    1,343

    Default Re : Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    We really need to get somebody down there to take care of this guy.. Hes sitting on way too much oil to be a socialist.
    Where's the problem? The guy is democratically elected, he always guarantees oil supply for its neighbours(including USofA). Is what he makes from its money such a danger? He does'nt build a powerful army, he doesn't hang the capitalists, he even frees people who tried to coup him. What is the problem with him?

    You don't like its politics? Its politics are asked by the voters. He might have some personal interpretations of "democracy", but he's been elected regularly - with both positive & negative medias.

    He's a socialist? Hell, I know zounds of socialists who would like to hand capitalists by the balls. He didn't. And the voters have choosen a socialist president, twice. Do you believe in democracy?
    War is not about who is right, only about who is left

    Having a point of view upon everything is good
    Having a view upon every point is better

  9. #9

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    We really need to get somebody down there to take care of this guy.. Hes sitting on way too much oil to be a socialist.
    They tried it already , don't you remember Powell on giving the address where he praised the coup , using doctored TV footage to show how evil the Chavez regime was .
    But the coup turned out to be a complete failure because the population and the army didn't support it .
    Times change Panzer , you cannot install a new Pinochett every time you feel like it . Get used to it .
    Or do you want a return to the good old days of right wing death squads

  10. #10
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Riding Shai-Hulud
    Posts
    5,346

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    We really need to get somebody down there to take care of this guy.. Hes sitting on way too much oil to be a socialist.
    Is Norway next on the list ?
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  11. #11
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    Is Norway next on the list ?
    yes
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  12. #12
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Halifax NewScotland Canada
    Posts
    4,114

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    That author really needs to disengage his head from Chávez's ass. Still if Chávez is doing half of what he claims to be doing then more power to him. IMO the reason that the yank ruling class wants him gone is that he's trying to upset the apple cart they've spent 100 years buiding in latin america. Chávez was elected by then threw away the US style government that Venezuela has had since independence from Spain. A government style that places a heap of power in the wealthiest class of society.






    Some more articles I found on Chávez I found that explain a lot about him his rise to power and his popularity.
    http://www.alternet.org/story/16255
    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0816-03.htm
    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-01.htm
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1925236.stm
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

    VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

    I came, I saw, I kicked ass

  13. #13
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Jefferson
    “Ask not what the government can do for you. Ask what the government is doing to you. - Friedman
    “Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.” – Salvatore
    And finally

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." - Tyler
    Democracy doesnt work. It may look all rosey now but as Alvin Lee says "Tax the rich feed the poor till there aint no rich no more" What happens after youve taxed the rich out of existance?
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 05-31-2005 at 18:13.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  14. #14
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    France
    Posts
    3,074

    Default Re : Chávez leads the way

    "Social is good." - Meneldil
    One day I'll beat you at quoting ;-P

  15. #15
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Stated by someone who believs he is a dictator purely because some powerful govts and media stations scream it.
    Gee, maybe because he has outlawed protest against him, cracked down on the media, declared state of emergencies to take control over the legislature and judicial branch, created a cult of personality, bought 100k new assualt rifles, 40 new fighter jets, and cozied up to Libya dictator Khadafy?

    And why do you believe he's a benevolent, elected leader? Because he and his brown nosed marxist lackeys say so? If he's the great and glorious leader you say he is, why has he outlawed protest and dissent? Can you explain that one?

    So tell me: who's the naive one?

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  16. #16

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Where's the problem? The guy is democratically elected, he always guarantees oil supply for its neighbours(including USofA). Is what he makes from its money such a danger? He does'nt build a powerful army, he doesn't hang the capitalists, he even frees people who tried to coup him. What is the problem with him?

    You don't like its politics? Its politics are asked by the voters. He might have some personal interpretations of "democracy", but he's been elected regularly - with both positive & negative medias.

    He's a socialist? Hell, I know zounds of socialists who would like to hand capitalists by the balls. He didn't. And the voters have choosen a socialist president, twice. Do you believe in democracy?
    They tried it already , don't you remember Powell on giving the address where he praised the coup , using doctored TV footage to show how evil the Chavez regime was .
    But the coup turned out to be a complete failure because the population and the army didn't support it .
    Times change Panzer , you cannot install a new Pinochett every time you feel like it . Get used to it .
    Or do you want a return to the good old days of right wing death squads
    Is Norway next on the list ?
    Hehe joke! Tongue in cheek! But yes, Norway is next on the list.

    Crazed Rabbit stated my opinion better than I could have. These socialists bully their way into power and give some handouts to the poor to get their PR going strong, and they never leave. You know if you pick and choose you can find good things Stalin did for Russia or Castro for Cuba. This guy is nothing more than a communist without the geopolitical ambitions..

    I refer you to the article:

    Chávez himself, a youthful former army colonel of 51, is now perceived in Latin America as the most unusual and original political figure to have emerged since Fidel Castro broke on to the scene nearly 50 years ago.

  17. #17
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Riding Shai-Hulud
    Posts
    5,346

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    As long as he doesn't train death squads, arrests random people or political opponents (without proper reason) and throws them in jail without a (fair) trial, and allows (open) elections without tampering with or ignoring the results, I don't really have a problem with what he does, and I don't see why anyone should. Of course, you can dislike him and disagree with him, but that doesn't mean the US has to stage another revolution (and honestly, I think that would go against what Bush himself believes in).

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." - Tyler
    I like this quote
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  18. #18
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    The wilderness...
    Posts
    9,215

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    bought 100k new assualt rifles, 40 new fighter jets, and cozied up to Libya dictator Khadafy?

    so military spending and relations with non-democratic leaders makes a tyrant ?
    In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!

  19. #19
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    “Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.” – Salvatore
    I agree with this statement.

    That is why the state should pay for university education and then students should get in based on merit.

    Also the state should pay for basic health services (not breast enlargements for people who are perfectly healthy).

    Giving equal opportunity to justice, health and education would seem to be the basics of good government.

    Social welfare should be seen like healthcare. You get to stay in the hospital until you are well enough to heal by yourself. You do not stay in the hospital when you are fine. Likewise with welfare it should be about getting people back on their feet not being a lifestyle choice.

    It would be logical then to give people more training when they are on welfare including money management skills. Interview skills. Time management skills etc.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    If he's the great and glorious leader you say he is, why has he outlawed protest and dissent? Can you explain that one?
    Blimey thats really hard Rabbit , lets see ?
    Gee, maybe because he has outlawed protest against him, cracked down on the media,
    Oh yes I think I have it now , the people who run the majority of the media staged a coup , overthrew the government and killed some innocent people , I think that might have a little something to do with the crackdown .
    But hey launching an armed rebellion without popular backing from the citizens is just soooo democratic , I can see why you support it .

  21. #21
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Lisbon,Portugal
    Posts
    4,952

    Wink Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
    bought 100k new assualt rifles, 40 new fighter jets, and cozied up to Libya dictator Khadafy?

    so military spending and relations with non-democratic leaders makes a tyrant ?
    uhm.....makes you think of someone else doesn´t it?....
    Last edited by Ronin; 06-01-2005 at 00:51.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  22. #22

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    uhm.....takes you think of someone else doesn´t it?.

    Classic

  23. #23
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    I agree with this statement.

    That is why the state should pay for university education and then students should get in based on merit.

    Also the state should pay for basic health services (not breast enlargements for people who are perfectly healthy).

    Giving equal opportunity to justice, health and education would seem to be the basics of good government.

    Social welfare should be seen like healthcare. You get to stay in the hospital until you are well enough to heal by yourself. You do not stay in the hospital when you are fine. Likewise with welfare it should be about getting people back on their feet not being a lifestyle choice.

    It would be logical then to give people more training when they are on welfare including money management skills. Interview skills. Time management skills etc.
    You've basically described what takes place in a properly governed socialist country.

    This is not far from the Communist state as well. The only difference is that in a communist state work is work no matter what you do and should be paid the same. If you want to have an easy engineering job you have every opportunity to get there, you just have to be good in school. If they are both doing the same hours of work then one may say they should be paid equally for their time don't you think?

  24. #24
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    If they are both doing the same hours of work then one may say they should be paid equally for their time don't you think?
    Duh .........................................NO.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  25. #25

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Socialism breeds incompetence, laziness, and dependence on the government.

  26. #26
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,674

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    You've basically described what takes place in a properly governed socialist country.

    This is not far from the Communist state as well. The only difference is that in a communist state work is work no matter what you do and should be paid the same. If you want to have an easy engineering job you have every opportunity to get there, you just have to be good in school. If they are both doing the same hours of work then one may say they should be paid equally for their time don't you think?
    Not quite I have already mentioned that university entrance should be decided on individual achievement.

    Nor do I believe that everyone should be payed the same. Skill, number of hours and output per hour are all important. A harder working person should get payed more. My father for instance had to do a productivity review at work. The typical engineer had a rating of 2 to 7 projects. He had a rating over 100 due to his ability.

    He once said that for every 10 people that start an engineering degree only 1 would make a decent engineer. A few would drop out, others become managers, some would have no ability beyond doing the degree and others would have to low an output.

    Not all work is equally useful. Not all people work equally hard. Not all people produce the same output.

    Would you really want to pay for a hamburger that is only a burnt piece of toast with a squirt of mayo between the slices? Even if it took the same amount of time to make as a with the works hamburger made by a decent cook?
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  27. #27
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    That's why Communism has failed. Because the government failed in motivating people properly. I think you know what I would do if I was in power back then(gulags). I would swarm jobsites with government officials overlooking everyone's output and if they don't deliver again you know what I would do(gulags).

    But I still agree with you that socialism is better. No need for you know what(gulags).

  28. #28
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Thule
    Posts
    1,323

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Socialism breeds incompetence, laziness, and dependence on the government.
    and Capitalism breeds poverty to many, wealth to few, conflict and egoism.
    www.overspun.com

    "Freedom without opportunity is a devil's gift."
    --Noam Chomsky

  29. #29
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in the cloud.
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    That's why Communism has failed. Because the government failed in motivating people properly. I think you know what I would do if I was in power back then(gulags). I would swarm jobsites with government officials overlooking everyone's output and if they don't deliver again you know what I would do(gulags).
    That's funny- because I think that's more or less how they did do it.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Chávez leads the way

    It is a good thing he is doing.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO