Spearmen and Skirmisher bonuses.

[Es Arkajae]

I'm wondering about the bonuses of such units.

For instance some units such as barbarian mercenaries are armed with spears, but do they get any bonuses against mounts? or is the bonus unit specific and doesn't just come with using a spear? so only the unit with 'bonuses against mounted units' specifically mentioned will get the bonus?

Second, do spearmen with the bonus against mounts get this bonus against elephants?, or is this a different thing?

Third, the bonus that skirmishers get against elephants and chariots, what kind of bonus?, if it is in attack value then does that bonus only apply to their missiles or does it apply to their melee attack stats as well?

Oh and as a tag on question.

How do elephants tend to go against chariots?, I've never really tried it before as I always wipe out the Egyptians early as the Seleucids and rarely attack them as Carthage and I don't play Parthia and the Britons are a bit out of the way.

Do the elephants own them or do they go down hamstrung like horses?

[The Stranger]

in vannilla noneor not all units get the bonus. but in most mods they get a bonus. also if they the spear atribute (in vannilla only phalanx has it, in most mods all spear units have it) they fight better vs cav and less vs infantry. eles are cav so also vs eles.

that skirmisher question i don't know, but i hope it's only for their missiles. you should test it.

and for the last one, why don't you try a custom battle and see for yourself

[Es Arkajae]

in vannilla noneor not all units get the bonus. but in most mods they get a bonus. also if they the spear atribute (in vannilla only phalanx has it, in most mods all spear units have it) they fight better vs cav and less vs infantry. eles are cav so also vs eles.

First off never mind about mods we're talking about 1.2.

I'm wondering about 'spearmen' units not phalanx ones, I know that phalanxes go well against elephants. I'm wondering about units like Libyan Spearmen, Triarii, Samnites and Desert Infantry (I think) etc.

Which reminds me what about camels against elephants?

that skirmisher question i don't know, but i hope it's only for their missiles. you should test it.

and for the last one, why don't you try a custom battle and see for yourself

Because custom battles can have many variables and asking here for a consensus from players who have tried already is preferable and liable to be more accurate

[NihilisticCow]

Non-Phalanx spearmen who get mount bonuses don't get this bonus versus elephants. It makes very little difference anyway, as it is too small to be really effective.

As for Camels vs Elephants... well as long as you have the elephants it's ok I don't know whether elephants are easier to spook with camels though, but I think it's just horses they have that effect on, but the camels will generally lose badly.

And for Chariots vs Elephants, chariots have little effect killing war elephants, and elephants are capable of killing chariots. So generally expect chariots to lose. It is not always that simple though, as the chariots tend to keep moving and be quicker than the elephants, so if there are a number of your other units nearby, the elephants might rout if you're lucky.

I think the bonus for skirmishers works for their melee attack as well, but it is so low you shouldn't really consider it too much.

[Oaty]

Vs cavalry bonus. Well in my observations it seems guard mode is the number 1 counter to cavalry besides superior quality or numbers of cavalry of course. On top of that hope that the unit being charged is facing the cavalry. If the unit being charged is in guard mode and facing the cavalry you can consider that cavalry dead. Either it will take significant losses or it should be pinned long enough that if you can't win the battle elsewhere that cavalry is insignificant.

Also if the unit you believe that will get targeted is in threat of getting hit on the flank, you are better off letting them get hit in the flank while stationary instead of having them moving but taking the charge head on. Unfortanately any infantry unit that is moving while getting hit by cavary is pretty much dead.

As far as spear units vs cavalry bonus, its my observation that warbands/militias have no bonus as they only come out of a first level barracks. This is excluding spear warbands wich are basically an elite unit out of a level 1 barracks. And those Libyan spearmen possibly the best spearclass non phalanx unit in the game are just slightly better than town militia vs cavalry. Again cavalry stationary infantry seem to do best against cavalry. Ignore those small "spear bonuses"

Spear VS elephants. Well oddly enough elephants were one of the # 1 enemies against phalanxes. Oddly enough that twig that a phalanx unit is holding does'nt get snapped in half by that little 1 to 2 ton beast. phalanxes typically mess elephants up.

Typically elephants would wreak havoc on units that either required formation or were heavily armoured. The reason elephants were so deadly to well armoured opponents was the fact that armour restricted movement. Also armoured units fell and could not get back up and it was'nt the fact they had too much to drink.

Skirmishers in most cases were lucky enough to even have leather armour so they had full flexibility. Plus they were typically in a much looser formation wich meant they could dodge left and right and not run into anyone. This allowed them to get under the elephants, stick a few javelins in there gut unharmed and the elephants either fell or ignored thier riders.

But if you want to kill elephants one of the number 1 killers is a phalanx unit. Missile units do a good job but historically an elephants hide was thick enough to sustain missiles(excluding heavy missiles ex. siege equipment). What javelins/arrows were good for was dismounting the mahoots. An elephant with no rider in control usually ran amok. Javelins work well here as it makes them run amok. Oddly enough the mahoots and elephants were seperate in the demo but in the full version the mahoots are untouchable. Thus a few sticks of the javelin/arrows and the elephants run away.

Skirmisher VS chariots. Historically skirmishers would slaughter chariots. Alexander the Great slaugthered a chariot charge with javelins. Against loose order infantry able to move out of the way of chariots and there dreaded scythes. Well gamewise deep formations work best against chariots as it kills there momentum. Historically chariots were used to disrupt close order infantry. Infantry usually followed right behind the chariots to take full advantage of this. Also the charioteers were'nt suicidal, they'd jump off at a safe distance and hope the horses would stay on course. 2 horses here, there only hope is that both horses take an option for the same direction. But a straight up skirmisher VS chariot..... expect your skirmishers dead.

Elephants VS chariots, well that'd be 50/50 here. Elephants did not like the noises chariots made and horses did not like elephants, so it'd amount to wich animal ran first. Gamewise chariots kick vanilla elephants butt and those armoured war elephants will kick a chariots butt.,