The Roman Conquest

[Sarcasm]

About the Spartan issue, I know they were better as soldiers! But as long as they kept the phalanx formation. Even being nice swordsmen compared to other greeks, they weren´t equipped for blade combat. In fact, their swords were about 30 cms. long, for they were reluctant to fight outside the phalanx, and they lacked armor by that time (or just used the Linothorax). In Spartan words, "we use short swords because we fight close to the enemy". Oh... I suppose my sofism is betraying me again

Even the "hoplite-sword" you speak of was about 75cm long (total) not 30cm as you claim, and made for both slashing and thrusting. I've had in my hand left-hand daggers of the 16th century longer than that. However, poorer Hellenic phalangites, especially of later years (namely our time period) were known to carry only very short swords (more like long daggers).

Spartans were elite soldiers, armed with the best of everything. Good quality Linothorax (maybe even bronze for a royal guard or older/richer soldiers), hoplon, bronze helmet and a kopis. In later years, elite, and semi-elite, infantry actually start using this greek version of the falcata.

As for the Roman gladius, it was around 70cm (total), though the Iberian version was longer. BTW, Romans only adopted the gladius *after* the Iberian campaigns against Carthage, before that, they used a similar sword to that of the greeks.

Stop talking about Sparta as a real power in that era. After the defeat of Leuctra (371 BC), Spartan power was just a (Sweet? Bitter?) memory. From then on, Sparta was just a toy in the political game of Macedon -first- and Rome -after- for the domination of Greece; its military power reduced to almost nothing, and its legendary discipline becoming a tourist attraction of the ancient world.

Dux, is right. After Leuctra, Spartan could no longer support large quantities of its elite soldiers and lost hegemony even in its own Pelopponesus. However, during the beginning of our time period, there's a clear revival of the old ways, due to reforms made by a sucession of kings, and they quickly become a small regional power, submiting other polis (Corinth even) in their immediate area. This however attracted the attention of the Macedonian king who promptly invaded and destroyed whatever hopes they had of becoming important in Greece, once again.

ok,
so. back on topic. were Roman Legionares superior in weaponry or armor? cuz I' dont get in anymore. one could state that teh gladius was a piece shit made compact, when another says the Shield was their main weapon. I'm to darn confused to right a good post!

wich reminds me. do/will roman legionares have/will get a shieldbash/smite animation?

Roman legionaries in this time period, have no advantage in equipment, over anyone (except maybe in quantity). The gladius was certainly no piece of shit and much like the medieval or ancient greek warrior, the shield was as much part of their offensive hability as the sword.

Oh and I don't think there's a bashing animation planned so I'll take a chance and say no.

He was surely in a bullfight arena... they have protecting walls around the arena so you can hide behind. Many popular festivities in some villages and towns include releasing bulls in closed streets so they pursue people who wants to be pursued -generally drunken youngsters- to the local bullfight place, where they're tainted, while people jump in and out of the arena. That's what we call an encierro. The ones in Pamplona for the festivities of St. Fermin -July 7th- are known internationally, because of that drunkard of Hemingway, who never understood a word about Spain, but felt very macho about these things.

Of course, the spectacle is shameful, childish, dangerous for both people and animals, and I hate it, so I have a laugh every time an idiot is caught by the bulls. Specially very drunken and go-happy foreigners that act irresponsibly as if bulls were cows or big goats. Then they whine at their embassies, as if they had been forced to take part... go figure.

I actually enjoy these types of festivities, espeacially forcados (for those of that don't know what that is, imagine 1 guy face to face with a bull, that waits for it to charge him, so he can grab his head from the front, then 4 guys jump in and try to stop the bull). However, bullfights that end in the bull's death, sicken me.

[metatron]

Give me my legions and I will give you the world.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I actually enjoy these types of festivities, espeacially forcados (for those of that don't know what that is, imagine 1 guy face to face with a bull, that waits for it to charge him, so he can grab his head from the front, then 4 guys jump in and try to stop the bull). However, bullfights that end in the bull's death, sicken me.

Yeah. Except for matadores, Spanish don't know how to really bullfight. They pick on the bull with armoured horses and long lances and don't do much else. We have toureiros (same as matadores) forcados (read guys with the balls the size of watermelons as Sarcasm explained) and toureiros a cavalo - guys that use the horse's agility (unarmoured horse) and their own skill to slide around the bull and do what matadores normally do. Killing bulls is not allowed in Portugal, btw, just fooling around them...

[Sarcasm]

Give me my legions and I will give you the world.

Give me my Lusitanian hosts and will give you your legions......in body bags.

Yeah. Except for matadores, Spanish don't know how to really bullfight. They pick on the bull with armoured horses and long lances and don't do much else. We have toureiros (same as matadores) forcados (read guys with the balls the size of watermelons as Sarcasm explained) and toureiros a cavalo - guys that use the horse's agility (unarmoured horse) and their own skill to slide around the bull and do what matadores normally do. Killing bulls is not allowed in Portugal, btw, just fooling around them...

Hehehe.....fooling around....

Forcados in action:

[Dux Corvanus]

Bah, they still torture the poor animal with those ominous banderillas. We wonder about Roman morals when we talk about amphitheatre games, and there's still people who enjoy seeing some guys doing the macho man before a frightened beast.

My proposal is: leave the bulls alone. And if you want spectacle, then voluntary gladiators are a better option. It's bloody, they show how big are their balls -as if I mattered- and they're there because they want.

I wished we were known by better things than bullfighting and those horrendous agonic screams -flamenco singing. IMHO, the only difference between pain shouts and flamenco is that, in the former, the poor screamer is taken out of his misery either by euthanasia, drugs or natural death, and in the latter, it is you who needs euthanasia.

[Sarcasm]

"There was nothing unusual in lakedaimonian swords until the 5th century, when they began to get shorter. By c.425-400 they had become exceedingly short, like daggers, as is testified to by numerous literary passages [...] this bronze model of a sword, purchased in Crete in 1898, may well reproduce the shape. At 32.2 cm long, it is slightly larger than a dagger [...] Finally, a Spartan woman, when her son complained that his sword was too small, advised him to add a step forward to it."

The Spartan Army, Nick Sekunda. 2004

Ouch! All that studies about ancient greeks...crap...this Nick guy must be lying anyway right?

P.S: By the time they adopted that sword, Spartan also gave up armor completely and started using their pilos helmets. It is discussed if later on they got back to wear some light armor.

Sorry for the Off-topic btw, just teaching some history lessons to some historians

Our mods starts more than 150 years after what you mention....we even have soldiers armed with Celtic longswords at this point, so what's your angle? The Spartans, as you knew them, were gone. Get over it. No armour? Right.

Ok...

Aymar, I know perfectly the evolution of the iberian falcata, no need for you to explain it (that stuff about the kopis). And I´m not confused at all. Didn´t know that you portuguese, besides being a happy fishermen tribe with a funny accent, were as clever as you´re showing me you are.

Sarcasm, another portuguese friend, this goes for you sweetie:

Hmmm.....between confusing the Iberian Falcata with the Dacian falx, or saying that the gladius hispaniensis was an evolution of it, I'd say you're pretty knowledgable about this subject. Oh and you're spanish too, so no point in argueing with you, you're there, you just *know*. After all you live in the same place as the Iberian people lived up to *only* 2000 years. I bet you can even trace your bloodlines to them. Hell you might even have a *real* Iberian falcata handed down from generation to generation. Who knows, even some kind of genetic memory...

A sweet, happy fishermen tribesman, with a funny accent I might be but....

"You, Sir, are an idiot."

[bodidley]

You crazy peninsulares have to learn to play nice As for all that bullfighting and running with the bulls stuff... We don't have that crazy crap in America; whenever I've been chased by a ferocious animal it was not by choice

[Dux Corvanus]

We don't have that crazy crap in America; whenever I've been chased by a ferocious animal it was not by choice

He surprised you inside his bedroom wardrobe, mmmm?

[bodidley]

You crazy peninsulares have to learn to play nice

:~p

[Eucarionte]

Ok...

Aymar, I know perfectly the evolution of the iberian falcata, no need for you to explain it (that stuff about the kopis). And I´m not confused at all. Didn´t know that you portuguese, besides being a happy fishermen tribe with a funny accent, were as clever as you´re showing me you are.

Sarcasm, another portuguese friend, this goes for you sweetie:

"There was nothing unusual in lakedaimonian swords until the 5th century, when they began to get shorter. By c.425-400 they had become exceedingly short, like daggers, as is testified to by numerous literary passages [...] this bronze model of a sword, purchased in Crete in 1898, may well reproduce the shape. At 32.2 cm long, it is slightly larger than a dagger [...] Finally, a Spartan woman, when her son complained that his sword was too small, advised him to add a step forward to it."

The Spartan Army, Nick Sekunda. 2004

Ouch! All that studies about ancient greeks...crap...this Nick guy must be lying anyway right?

P.S: By the time they adopted that sword, Spartan also gave up armor completely and started using their pilos helmets. It is discussed if later on they got back to wear some light armor.

Sorry for the Off-topic btw, just teaching some history lessons to some historians

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar, I know perfectly the evolution of the iberian falcata, no need for you to explain it (that stuff about the kopis). And I´m not confused at all.

Then why all the mistakes and the arrogance that you used in your posts?

Didn´t know that you portuguese, besides being a happy fishermen tribe with a funny accent, were as clever as you´re showing me you are.

He!He! "happy fishermen tribe with a funny accent"? Well, these "happy fishermen" handed every Spanish their asses for 800 years. And we're still independent. And not for your lack of trying...

Sorry for the Off-topic btw, just teaching some history lessons to some historians

Keep trying. We are amused by your "expert" attempts...

[Dux Corvanus]

These "happy fishermen" handed every Spanish their asses for 800 years.

Ehem... that thing about you 'handing' my ass... you should keep that in private, darling...



And...

Toro, 1476
Alcántara, 1580
Açores, 1582
Montijo, 1644

Not to count the numberless occasions that Portugal had his ass saved by their English godfathers...

But, yes, the truth is that we have won some battles and lost others but... we've lost every war.

But, hey... WE STILL HAVE THE BIG SIDE! (and it's the RIGHT one... for yours is the left one...)



NOTE: Eucarionte, you can't accuse people of being fishermen... when practicing trolling...

[Sarcasm]

In effect, what I'm saying is that the entire notion that Rome, or any people are just "better" then another is stupid. There are extenutating circumstances, political/economic landscapes, tactical decisions and realities and yes, even luck that determines who is in power, when, and how. There are pros and cons to every military formation, nothing is an "end all beat all" way of doing things, its all a matter of how the cards are played.

Exactly. My intention was not to make the romans seem inferior, rather make other peoples equal to them, in some respects.

All the mistakes? I only had one. And that Sarcasm thing got another one (read more about Spartans mate). Not bad for one "future" businessman vs. two happy, fishermen historians.

Funny you call me a fishermen when Spain has the largest fishing fleet in the EU, almost as large as the chinese one. And I advise to get a clue about ancient warfare and its *evolution*. I'm no expert but then again I didn't call a falcata, a Dacian weapon, either.

Do you really want to turn this into some kind of stupid ethnical discussion? I think bodidley got it right, really

Not only did I have no intention of going there, I didn't, when I refered to your nationality I was refering to your amazing theory that because you're Spanish, you know more than Aymar or Shigawire.

Plainly pathetic. Just as your pride of being Portuguese. What I´m proud of, is precisely that you are another nation, believe me.

And now this childish discussion ends.

HAHAHAHAHAHA........*snif*...oh...geeeeee...you crack me up man...want me to quote you on "stupid ethnical discussion"? What about "childish" comments?

I still had something to say....what was that.....hmmmm.....



....oh yeah!

"You, Sir, are an idiot."

Toro, 1476
Alcántara, 1580
Açores, 1582
Montijo, 1644

Not to count the numberless occasions that Portugal had his ass saved by their English godfathers...

Oh c'mon Dux, you know better than that....the only real victory there was Montijo. And if I recall correctly, Toro was a tie, the Castillans were winning but left the field after the Prince João's squadron appeared over the hill. nothing came out of that battle. Peace was signed almost immediately.

[Dux Corvanus]

And if I recall correctly, Toro was a tie, the Castillans were winning but left the field after the Prince João's squadron appeared over the hill. nothing came out of that battle. Peace was signed almost immediately.

You recall very wrongly... because it was Prince Joao who fled back to Portugal, while his father the King Alfonso ran to shelter behind the walls of Toro...

From a 'neutral' (English) web page:

In the afternoon of March 1st, 1476, the Portuguese forces clashed with the Castilian forces under don Fernando at Peleagonzalo, a small town between Toro and Zamora, in a plane next to the river Duero.

The Spanish forces numbered around 30,000 and the Portuguese around 40,000. After several hours of battle, from about noon until sun down, the Portuguese divided their forces. Alfonso V fled, seeking the safety of the city walls of Toro with his men. His son and what was left of his forces retreated towards the Portuguese border. As the Portuguese moved through the Sayago area, as many as 350 Portuguese soldiers were captured by the local defensive militia and were castrated before they were allowed to continue moving back towards Portugal. That was pay back for the way they behave on their way into Spain. Queen Isabel chastised her husband and her soldiers for not pursuing and fighting the Portuguese until they were completely destroyed. According to tradition, one of the church officials commented that Isabel wore her pants better than the men! She had even suffered a miscarriage while riding from town to town raising money and volunteers for her army.

Three months later, King Alfonso V retreated towards Oporto. The military invasion of Castile had failed. Isabel and Fernando had won the war. The towns and villages of along the Duero, on the other hand, were left under populated by the thousands of casualties of the war and the economic damage of the plundering armies. Executions of those who had supported the Portuguese were common.

Haaa! It seems we also know how to keep our independence... And yes, Alfonso V was willing to sign the peace... to avoid further ass-kicking... and nothing came out of the battle: He was not king of Castile.

And don't worry, Khel. These are 'lovers fights'... We are joined by our 'love' to Napoleon and other common friends...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Ehem... that thing about you 'handing' my ass... you should keep that in private, darling...

LOL

And...

Toro, 1476
Alcántara, 1580
Açores, 1582
Montijo, 1644

But, yes, the truth is that we have won some battles and lost others but... we've lost every war.

True. You've won battles. I did not said you didn't. Although it sounded a bit one sided due to irritation.

Not to count the numberless occasions that Portugal had his ass saved by their English godfathers...

And the inumerous times they've tricked us invoking false reasons...

But, hey... WE STILL HAVE THE BIG SIDE! (and it's the RIGHT one... for yours is the left one...)

Well, we didn't wanted it for anything. To damn dry...

[Eucarionte]

You just can´t quit it, can you? What I won´t tolerate is a nerd continuously insulting me in some weird topic. Nevertheless, this is my LAST post on this topic, no matter what you say after it. Now, let´s get Sarcastic for a moment, shall we?

"idiot". I find very amusing your strange likeliness with this word, since you apparently like to write it again and again. Have you ever considered to work as a clown? I see you´ve got natural aptitudes, you could make lotsa money! I can´t help but imagining you randomly repeating this word in your funny accent. Thank you for giving me such a good time during my exams season


"HAHAHAHAHAHA........*snif*...oh...geeeeee..."

Bravo! you got it! That´s exactly what I mean about childish behaviour! Next lesson: How to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

But you know what´s REALLY fun about this? That you´re working for me. And for free. All the effort, the headaches and the stress you´re putting on this mod, and all for me. Guess what? Next time I go to Portugal, I´ll drop 2 or 3 cents (that´ll be enough considering your economy) near your caves, so you can buy something to eat (but please don´t touch me, not even to show gratitude). You truly deserve it.