weird-ass units

[jerby]

i came across the Minimal-greek-mod today. i saw some nice, but weird, units.

The mod agrued that hypaspistai werent phalangites or hoplites. due to their versatily role threw history the might very well have changed since Alexander (the time in wich they were prett 'clearly' hoplites or phalangites) so they used Hypaspistai asskirmishes-infantry and shock-inf. having 4 javs and a short sword and a big hoplon. there even was a Corinthian hypaspistai. wich was comparable with the spartan hoplite (in guality)

they talked abotu greeks using thessalian-cavalry. why i dont doubt they sometimes used it. but i was under teh impression the 'allied hellenes' never used a cavalry arm.

and last but not least:Krypteia....
these where young men recruited by the temple of Nike (.....) and where a step up from Thureophoroi. they were in smaller number and masters in stealth and ambushing.

whats EB's take on these units? will soem be featured? or are they crap and not true?



doubting the last part...
the site also states that alexandersd Hypaspistai slowly became known as SIlver shields (argyraspidai). so is this not true, or is EB using two units for what was one?(doubt EB is wrong..)
another thing, direct quote:

They were 10,000 strong and fought as the right flank of the phalanx for example at Raphia under Antiochus III. This is the unit that was re-equipped as Roman legionaries under Antiochus IV (as represented in RTW - good research, CA).

[Sarcasm]

The mod agrued that hypaspistai werent phalangites or hoplites. due to their versatily role threw history the might very well have changed since Alexander (the time in which they were pretty 'clearly' hoplites or phalangites) so they used Hypaspistai as skirmishes-infantry and shock-inf. having 4 javs and a short sword and a big hoplon. there even was a Corinthian hypaspistai. wich was comparable with the spartan hoplite (in guality)

No one knows exactly how Hypaspistai fought. We do know that they perform different roles throughout their existence, and so, they should have been tactically flexible, capable of acting in the both roles you have written here. We know, for example, that some of Alexander's troops (namely Hypaspistai and Hetaroi) wore less armour (or lighter armour) in peace keeping campaigns or low-intensity conflicts. We also know that Macedonian phalangites, were trained to fight as peltasts as well as fighting with the sarissa at some point their history.

However, the game engine cannot properly represent this, and so we have to stick with what was their main role in battle, being a hoplite-type of soldier, but armoured in bronze/mail and good with a sword (at this point probably a longsword adopted from the Galatians). Oh and let's not forget that in the game's period, Hypaspistai were almost extinct.

they talked abotu greeks using thessalian-cavalry. why i dont doubt they sometimes used it. but i was under teh impression the 'allied hellenes' never used a cavalry arm.

Thessalians were greek themselves, not Macedonians. They were subject to Macedonia for a long time though. Also, the polis used cavalry, just not in large numbers and certainly not in a decisive manner. Mainly because of terrain and economical reasons (no large land-owner aristocracy that existed in the northern areas, like Macedonia or Thessaly, who could support a heavy-cavalry arm).

and last but not least:Krypteia....
these where young men recruited by the temple of Nike (.....) and where a step up from Thureophoroi. they were in smaller number and masters in stealth and ambushing.

No idea.

doubting the last part...
the site also states that alexandersd Hypaspistai slowly became known as SIlver shields (argyraspidai).

The silver shields were initially a veteran division of the Hypaspistai, slowly they "just" became veteran/elite phalangites.

another thing, direct quote:

They were 10,000 strong and fought as the right flank of the phalanx for example at Raphia under Antiochus III. This is the unit that was re-equipped as Roman legionaries under Antiochus IV (as represented in RTW - good research, CA).

They are refering to Thorakitai. Immitation legionaires did not exist in that form.

The only ones that might be considered as them, would be Numidian troops, trained by Roman advisors (who fared poorly....) and Galatians rearmed/reorganized to fight in the Roman manner, by Roman commanders.


BTW...care to post some links?

[hellenes]

Thessalians were greek themselves, not Macedonians. They were subject to Macedonia for a long time though. Also, the polis used cavalry, just not in large numbers and certainly not in a decisive manner. Mainly because of terrain and economical reasons (no large land-owner aristocracy that existed in the northern areas, like Macedonia or Thessaly, who could support a heavy-cavalry arm).

Although I dont want to interfere in the discussion I have to correct a false statement: The Makedones were Hellenic without ANY proved cultural distinction with the rest of the hellenes.

Hellenes

[Shigawire]

and last but not least:Krypteia....
these where young men recruited by the temple of Nike (.....) and where a step up from Thureophoroi. they were in smaller number and masters in stealth and ambushing.

What Teleklos has said about this is true. First of all, the Krypteia were Spartans. Second of all, the Krypteia were not some elite commando units. They were simply the secret police. The Gestapo, the StaSi, the Homeland Security, the.. you name it. "Krypteia" means "hidden". Much like the Japanese Shinobi, they kept an eye on potential troublemakers. The purpose was to quell any helot uprising before it could even start to grow. So most of their activities revolved around observation and monitoring. They would go to the suspected helots during the night, drag them out - which interrupted their sleep - and simply kill them.

The Krypteia were also used as a strategic intelligence service, and as couriers carrying secret documents. The Spartans had a staff-shaped device for decoding encrypted messages. The device was called the "skytale." It was a stick wrapped with narrow strips of papyrus, leather, or parchment. The message was written on the wrapping; then the strip was removed and passed to the messenger. Only when it was rewound around a stick with the exact same diameter as the skytale could the message be deciphered.




Here is an example from Diodorus:
'The skuta/lh was a staff used for writing in code. The Lacedaemonians had two round staves of identical size, the one kept at Sparta, the other in possession of commanders abroad. A strip of paper was rolled slantwise around the staff and the dispatch written lengthwise on it; when unrolled the dispatch was unintelligible, but rolled slantwise round the commander's skytale it could be read. Even if Gylippus had found the dispatch he could not have read it.'

-you may consider it a primitive "enigma" machine.


The Krypteia was also a period in the learning experience that kids of -proper- Spartan citizens would have to go through. At the age of 7, you began training for military service. At the age of 10, you would go through a period of "krypteia" where you were temporarily banned from the city and forced to live in the forest alone. The purpose of this was to teach the children to become self-sufficient in the wild, and to become devious and clever thieves. Because the only way for them to get food was to steal from the city - or to hunt prey - which you were unlikely to do at 10. And so, you had to steal, but if you got caught, you would get a nasty lashing or some other form of punishment. The point was that you WOULD steal, but you should not be caught stealing..

And so the 'Krypteia' was 3 things:
1) A secret police murdering people who gave the faintest hint of dissention.
2) Military intelligence service.
3) A hardcore "boy scout" period at the age of 10.

They were most certainly not battlefield ninjas.

[jerby]

well, in the mod. they are a unit of 20 men. dressed as thureophori, and can hide anywhere. so I can see how they got to that, but its just not completly right. but this has taught me a lot. thansk guys!

[Sarcasm]

Although I dont want to interfere in the discussion I have to correct a false statement: The Makedones were Hellenic without ANY proved cultural distinction with the rest of the hellenes.

Hellenes

That's irrelevant. The southern hellenes thought of themselves as greeks and thought of their northern cousins as macedonians....barbarians even. The fact that they were not culturaly distinct has no relevance as to how they felt about each other.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

and last but not least:Krypteia....
these where young men recruited by the temple of Nike (.....) and where a step up from Thureophoroi. they were in smaller number and masters in stealth and ambushing.

whats EB's take on these units? will soem be featured? or are they crap and not true?

They were the most ruthless Spartan youths who were selected to go on night raids into Helot territory and cull those Helots who either became the most physically dangerous or most likely to cause problems by their actions. It was legal for them to kill Helots at will and they were especially feared. They were certainly dangerous, but they were basically a bunch of older teens who killed non-combatants in their sleep. I've not seen any evidence that they were used in any battles or even in any "covert" state missions other than killing slaves. I have no idea if they were still around in any form by the early third century BC, *but* the chief reason for their existence was mostly gone by that time -- the suppression of the Messenian Helots (since Messenia had been freed from Spartan control by the Thebans and remained at liberty thanks to the efforts of the peoples of Megalopolis and the rest of the Peloponnese). They will not be units in EB. Hope this has been helpful!

[Sarcasm]

Oh! Those guys! Didn't link Kriptès with Krypteia...the Spartan death squad...of course...duh...

[jerby]

ok, thnx, everyone.

I got a link, its https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46285
but where to donwload it: TWcenter.. wich is down...
but will thessalian cav be available as a regional unit?
is there evidence of the kripteia being thureophoroi?