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  1. #1
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    Yeah, and then I feel left out, because nobody cares who lived around Warsaw 2000 years ago and I don't have anybody to fight with :)
    I'm still not here

  2. #2
    Ashes to ashes. Funk to funky. Member Angadil's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    Quote Originally Posted by eadingas
    Yeah, and then I feel left out, because nobody cares who lived around Warsaw 2000 years ago and I don't have anybody to fight with :)
    You are just not looking hard enough, eadingas... believe me If you're really itching for it so badly, just let me know and I'll find you something. And if 2000 years ago just doesn't work, just look closer to our times. Or further back. Whatever. You'll always find something.

    And now a feeble attempt to steer this back into historical discussion. IIRC, during the Lamian war the Thessalians siwtched allegiances and fought with the coalition of Greek cities against their former Macedonian allies/overlords. Apparently the Thessalian cavalry gave their Macedonian counterpart a good run for their money too.
    Europa Barbarorum. Giving history a chance.

  3. #3
    Wandering Historian Member eadingas's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    Well, I don't see any followers of Great Slavianism around here, and they'd be the only ones who could have anything to say on this matter, with their fantasies about ancient Slavs fighting Roman armies etc. :)
    I'm still not here

  4. #4
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    The most weird point is that im speaking with quotes from various sources while others present purely personal opinions without backing them with evidence...

    From "A History of Macedonia"
    by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
    University of California Press, 1993

    Page 3
    "That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."

    Page 4
    "Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."

    From "Alexander's empire"
    by John Pentland Mahaffy (University of Dublin, Ireland)
    G Putnam's sons, London, 1881

    Page 8
    "... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "

    From "The Western Experience"
    by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
    Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
    David Herlihy (Harvard University),
    Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
    and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
    Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997

    Page 79
    "THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
    Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".


    But I have one last question: Who was allowed to participate in the OLYMPIC GAMES?
    ...Because Makedones did participate...

    Hellenes
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


    ΑΙΡΕΥΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΝ ΑΝΤΙ ΑΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΑΡΙΣΤΟΙ ΚΛΕΟΣ ΑΕΝΑΟΝ ΘΝΗΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΔΕ ΠΟΛΛΟΙ ΚΕΚΟΡΗΝΤΑΙ ΟΚΩΣΠΕΡ ΚΤΗΝΕΑ

    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

  5. #5
    Member Member O_Stratigos's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    @hellenes

    The most weird point is that im speaking with quotes from various sources while others present purely personal opinions without backing them with evidence...
    Citing "quotes from various sources" is one thing, but as far as this is some kind of “evidence” from you part is quite another, since all these “quotes” are, IMHO, ambiguous.
    "That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."
    saying that “may be regarded nowadays as certain” is not exactly what one might call certain..

    "Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."
    unless people are either famous or notorious, no one has much to say about them.. There is not really that much said about the Macedonians in the few centuries of previous Greek history anyway..

    "... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "
    since Alexander was under “Greek influence” himself, that’s hardly surprising..

    Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".
    it was a "somewhat backward kingdom in- what we today call- northern Greece", as for “Its emergence as a Hellenic power “ well.. one usually trades “upwards” culturally..

    But I have one last question: Who was allowed to participate in the OLYMPIC GAMES?
    ...Because Makedones did participate...
    IIRC, "Macedones did not participate" per se, only few members of the royal family did and that was not always a “given” with the then “Olympic Committee”.. I am sure you know what I mean..

    By the way, I am Greek.

    O_Stratigos


    Exitus acta probat.

  6. #6
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    Quote Originally Posted by o_megas
    @hellenes


    Citing "quotes from various sources" is one thing, but as far as this is some kind of “evidence” from you part is quite another, since all these “quotes” are, IMHO, ambiguous.
    saying that “may be regarded nowadays as certain” is not exactly what one might call certain..

    unless people are either famous or notorious, no one has much to say about them.. There is not really that much said about the Macedonians in the few centuries of previous Greek history anyway..

    since Alexander was under “Greek influence” himself, that’s hardly surprising..


    it was a "somewhat backward kingdom in- what we today call- northern Greece", as for “Its emergence as a Hellenic power “ well.. one usually trades “upwards” culturally..


    IIRC, "Macedones did not participate" per se, only few members of the royal family did and that was not always a “given” with the then “Olympic Committee”.. I am sure you know what I mean..

    By the way, I am Greek.

    O_Stratigos
    Γεια σου πατριωτη!!!

    Now either the sources I quote are falsified or I cannot understand what do you mean by "ambiguous".
    As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?
    My position is same as Idomenease's: 50 years of propaganda and an american recognition are not enough to erase history.

    Hellenes
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


    ΑΙΡΕΥΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΝ ΑΝΤΙ ΑΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΑΡΙΣΤΟΙ ΚΛΕΟΣ ΑΕΝΑΟΝ ΘΝΗΤΩΝ ΟΙ ΔΕ ΠΟΛΛΟΙ ΚΕΚΟΡΗΝΤΑΙ ΟΚΩΣΠΕΡ ΚΤΗΝΕΑ

    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

  7. #7

    Default Re: weird-ass units

    I think there is some confusion here because it is probably more accurate to say that the macedonians became hellenised. around the time of phillip and alexander.

    it is true that the southern greeks thought of the macedonians as a bit backward, this is because they were early on (500BC ish)

    however, phillip, when he was a young man was a prisoner of the Thebans and it is thought that it was in thebes that he learnt about hoplite warfare - particularly with pikes - as it was at the time of the thebans beating the spartans (leuctra?) that he was a prisoner there.

    upon his release he went back to macedonia and raised a new hellenic style army, bound it into a real kingdom and then conquered all of southern greece (essentially).

    so I think that this is the stage at which the macedonians are transformed from an irritating northern border nation into a massive power that the southern greeks must now recognise as macedon had just conquered them. They were hugely powerful and so of course they would have a say in how things were run in greece it was no longer possible to ignore them.

    suffice to say - ithink it is more accurate to say that hellenism was spread to the north by phillip and then all the way to the east by alexander.

  8. #8
    Egomaniac sexpert Member Dux Corvanus's Avatar
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    Default Re: weird-ass units

    Quote Originally Posted by hellenes
    As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?
    Because they forced their admission?

    Nero also pariticipated in them. Was he Greek?

    Olympic games were the best political instrument to get admitted as Greek and avoid rebellion against Macedonian rule, the same than participating in the Delphi rites. Philip and Alexander knew too well. So the Macedonian owners of Greece decided to participate in them. Who was to oppose them?

    And I bet they even won many crowns there...

    Of course, they were completely hellenized by then. But to be hellenic is not the same than being a hellene. As being Spanish-American and speak Spanish doesn't convert you into a Spaniard, despite cultural coincidences.
    Last edited by Dux Corvanus; 06-07-2005 at 13:39.

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