weird-ass units

[Angadil]

Yeah, and then I feel left out, because nobody cares who lived around Warsaw 2000 years ago and I don't have anybody to fight with :)

You are just not looking hard enough, eadingas... believe me If you're really itching for it so badly, just let me know and I'll find you something. And if 2000 years ago just doesn't work, just look closer to our times. Or further back. Whatever. You'll always find something.

And now a feeble attempt to steer this back into historical discussion. IIRC, during the Lamian war the Thessalians siwtched allegiances and fought with the coalition of Greek cities against their former Macedonian allies/overlords. Apparently the Thessalian cavalry gave their Macedonian counterpart a good run for their money too.

[eadingas]

Well, I don't see any followers of Great Slavianism around here, and they'd be the only ones who could have anything to say on this matter, with their fantasies about ancient Slavs fighting Roman armies etc. :)

[hellenes]

The most weird point is that im speaking with quotes from various sources while others present purely personal opinions without backing them with evidence...

From "A History of Macedonia"
by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
University of California Press, 1993

Page 3
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."

Page 4
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."

From "Alexander's empire"
by John Pentland Mahaffy (University of Dublin, Ireland)
G Putnam's sons, London, 1881

Page 8
"... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "

From "The Western Experience"
by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
David Herlihy (Harvard University),
Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997

Page 79
"THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".


But I have one last question: Who was allowed to participate in the OLYMPIC GAMES?
...Because Makedones did participate...

Hellenes

[O_Stratigos]

@hellenes

The most weird point is that im speaking with quotes from various sources while others present purely personal opinions without backing them with evidence...

Citing "quotes from various sources" is one thing, but as far as this is some kind of “evidence” from you part is quite another, since all these “quotes” are, IMHO, ambiguous.

"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."

saying that “may be regarded nowadays as certain” is not exactly what one might call certain..

"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."

unless people are either famous or notorious, no one has much to say about them.. There is not really that much said about the Macedonians in the few centuries of previous Greek history anyway..

"... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "

since Alexander was under “Greek influence” himself, that’s hardly surprising..

Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".

it was a "somewhat backward kingdom in- what we today call- northern Greece", as for “Its emergence as a Hellenic power “ well.. one usually trades “upwards” culturally..

But I have one last question: Who was allowed to participate in the OLYMPIC GAMES?
...Because Makedones did participate...

IIRC, "Macedones did not participate" per se, only few members of the royal family did and that was not always a “given” with the then “Olympic Committee”.. I am sure you know what I mean..

By the way, I am Greek.

O_Stratigos

[hellenes]

@hellenes


Citing "quotes from various sources" is one thing, but as far as this is some kind of “evidence” from you part is quite another, since all these “quotes” are, IMHO, ambiguous.
saying that “may be regarded nowadays as certain” is not exactly what one might call certain..

unless people are either famous or notorious, no one has much to say about them.. There is not really that much said about the Macedonians in the few centuries of previous Greek history anyway..

since Alexander was under “Greek influence” himself, that’s hardly surprising..


it was a "somewhat backward kingdom in- what we today call- northern Greece", as for “Its emergence as a Hellenic power “ well.. one usually trades “upwards” culturally..


IIRC, "Macedones did not participate" per se, only few members of the royal family did and that was not always a “given” with the then “Olympic Committee”.. I am sure you know what I mean..

By the way, I am Greek.

O_Stratigos

Γεια σου πατριωτη!!!

Now either the sources I quote are falsified or I cannot understand what do you mean by "ambiguous".
As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?
My position is same as Idomenease's: 50 years of propaganda and an american recognition are not enough to erase history.

Hellenes

[Boon]

I think there is some confusion here because it is probably more accurate to say that the macedonians became hellenised. around the time of phillip and alexander.

it is true that the southern greeks thought of the macedonians as a bit backward, this is because they were early on (500BC ish)

however, phillip, when he was a young man was a prisoner of the Thebans and it is thought that it was in thebes that he learnt about hoplite warfare - particularly with pikes - as it was at the time of the thebans beating the spartans (leuctra?) that he was a prisoner there.

upon his release he went back to macedonia and raised a new hellenic style army, bound it into a real kingdom and then conquered all of southern greece (essentially).

so I think that this is the stage at which the macedonians are transformed from an irritating northern border nation into a massive power that the southern greeks must now recognise as macedon had just conquered them. They were hugely powerful and so of course they would have a say in how things were run in greece it was no longer possible to ignore them.

suffice to say - ithink it is more accurate to say that hellenism was spread to the north by phillip and then all the way to the east by alexander.

[Dux Corvanus]

As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?

Because they forced their admission?

Nero also pariticipated in them. Was he Greek?

Olympic games were the best political instrument to get admitted as Greek and avoid rebellion against Macedonian rule, the same than participating in the Delphi rites. Philip and Alexander knew too well. So the Macedonian owners of Greece decided to participate in them. Who was to oppose them?

And I bet they even won many crowns there...

Of course, they were completely hellenized by then. But to be hellenic is not the same than being a hellene. As being Spanish-American and speak Spanish doesn't convert you into a Spaniard, despite cultural coincidences.

[Idomeneas]

Maybe the fact that they were Dorians makes them as greek as the spartans or corinthians? Thats why they collaborated during pelloponesian war. Maybe cause king Alexandros warned the greeks of Mardonius plans the night before Platea battle, explaining his risky act as care for his compatriots?
Many speak of the dialect. Do you know that spartans talked differently also?
You know Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ is in attic Η ΤΗΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ. and thats a minor difference. There are differences even in syntax. Dorian passages were my school nightmares trust me.
Do you know that Kime Eboic greeks had slightly different alphabet (some letters) and its the one latin comes from?
Do you know that Makedones comes from makednoi meaning tall men?

Should i add that every bit of scripture is in greek and every bit of art also?
They were ''hellenized'' during Philips or Alexanders years when they were superpower of Balkans? Isnt that crazy? Why they didnt spread their ''macedonian culture'' instead of greek? Romans had many ellements from greece but they spread roman civilization.

Greek problem with unity is a known issue through time. Its our bane if you may say. All the ''facts'' of macedonian non-greek people are based on Demosthenes. Nobody cares that those speeches had Athenian propaganda agenda.

The fact that macedon was backward that doesnt make it non greek. Plataeans were poor also they even had old fashion shields deriving from the homeric 8shaped ones. That makes them non greek?

I think that the whole issue has gone too far. If anyone wants to really argue then bring the big guns and so many ancient passages and finds that will shut me up. Till then.....