weird-ass units

[hellenes]

@hellenes


Citing "quotes from various sources" is one thing, but as far as this is some kind of “evidence” from you part is quite another, since all these “quotes” are, IMHO, ambiguous.
saying that “may be regarded nowadays as certain” is not exactly what one might call certain..

unless people are either famous or notorious, no one has much to say about them.. There is not really that much said about the Macedonians in the few centuries of previous Greek history anyway..

since Alexander was under “Greek influence” himself, that’s hardly surprising..


it was a "somewhat backward kingdom in- what we today call- northern Greece", as for “Its emergence as a Hellenic power “ well.. one usually trades “upwards” culturally..


IIRC, "Macedones did not participate" per se, only few members of the royal family did and that was not always a “given” with the then “Olympic Committee”.. I am sure you know what I mean..

By the way, I am Greek.

O_Stratigos

Γεια σου πατριωτη!!!

Now either the sources I quote are falsified or I cannot understand what do you mean by "ambiguous".
As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?
My position is same as Idomenease's: 50 years of propaganda and an american recognition are not enough to erase history.

Hellenes

[Boon]

I think there is some confusion here because it is probably more accurate to say that the macedonians became hellenised. around the time of phillip and alexander.

it is true that the southern greeks thought of the macedonians as a bit backward, this is because they were early on (500BC ish)

however, phillip, when he was a young man was a prisoner of the Thebans and it is thought that it was in thebes that he learnt about hoplite warfare - particularly with pikes - as it was at the time of the thebans beating the spartans (leuctra?) that he was a prisoner there.

upon his release he went back to macedonia and raised a new hellenic style army, bound it into a real kingdom and then conquered all of southern greece (essentially).

so I think that this is the stage at which the macedonians are transformed from an irritating northern border nation into a massive power that the southern greeks must now recognise as macedon had just conquered them. They were hugely powerful and so of course they would have a say in how things were run in greece it was no longer possible to ignore them.

suffice to say - ithink it is more accurate to say that hellenism was spread to the north by phillip and then all the way to the east by alexander.

[Dux Corvanus]

As for the Olympic games if the Royal family was participating how that makes them not Hellenic?

Because they forced their admission?

Nero also pariticipated in them. Was he Greek?

Olympic games were the best political instrument to get admitted as Greek and avoid rebellion against Macedonian rule, the same than participating in the Delphi rites. Philip and Alexander knew too well. So the Macedonian owners of Greece decided to participate in them. Who was to oppose them?

And I bet they even won many crowns there...

Of course, they were completely hellenized by then. But to be hellenic is not the same than being a hellene. As being Spanish-American and speak Spanish doesn't convert you into a Spaniard, despite cultural coincidences.

[Idomeneas]

Maybe the fact that they were Dorians makes them as greek as the spartans or corinthians? Thats why they collaborated during pelloponesian war. Maybe cause king Alexandros warned the greeks of Mardonius plans the night before Platea battle, explaining his risky act as care for his compatriots?
Many speak of the dialect. Do you know that spartans talked differently also?
You know Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ is in attic Η ΤΗΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ. and thats a minor difference. There are differences even in syntax. Dorian passages were my school nightmares trust me.
Do you know that Kime Eboic greeks had slightly different alphabet (some letters) and its the one latin comes from?
Do you know that Makedones comes from makednoi meaning tall men?

Should i add that every bit of scripture is in greek and every bit of art also?
They were ''hellenized'' during Philips or Alexanders years when they were superpower of Balkans? Isnt that crazy? Why they didnt spread their ''macedonian culture'' instead of greek? Romans had many ellements from greece but they spread roman civilization.

Greek problem with unity is a known issue through time. Its our bane if you may say. All the ''facts'' of macedonian non-greek people are based on Demosthenes. Nobody cares that those speeches had Athenian propaganda agenda.

The fact that macedon was backward that doesnt make it non greek. Plataeans were poor also they even had old fashion shields deriving from the homeric 8shaped ones. That makes them non greek?

I think that the whole issue has gone too far. If anyone wants to really argue then bring the big guns and so many ancient passages and finds that will shut me up. Till then.....

[The Stranger]

krypteia's were the spartan deathsquad. not neccisarily skirmishers.

i just made a cool unit. i was so annoyed by the eggy archers (they had 10 in every army) that i changed them. now the act like legionares, but instead of pilums they do it with bows.

[eadingas]

They throw bows? :)

[jerby]

wow, that impresive. and the shock-unit throws ever bigger bows? does it bend on impact?

[Big_John]

They throw bows? :)

it's intimidation.. psychological warfare, if you will. basically they are saying, "we're such badasses, that we'll give you our weapons, and still kill you!"

[The Stranger]

they don't throw bows, wat ta fak (please don't warn me for this).

they fire the arrows with the bows (you guys still following me) and then charge the enemy. hey that's smart. now i won't be showered by 10 eggy elite archers for 400 volleys long but for just 40.

[bodidley]

Yeah, the number of arrows just has to be reduced

[anonymous_joe]

Why are the archers 'eggy'?

Is this some form of Classical warfare that passed me by or what?

[Steppe Merc]

Idomeneas, I was under the impression that Macedoians had a lot of Illyrian and Thracian blood as well as Dorian...

[O_Stratigos]

"The continuous disasters of man's history are mainly due to his excessive capacity and urge to become identified with a tribe, nation, church or cause, and to espouse its credo uncritically and enthusiastically, even if its tenets are contrary to reason, devoid of self-interest and detrimental to the claims of self-preservation.
We are thus driven to the unfashionable conclusion that the trouble with our species is not an excess of aggression, but an excess capacity for fanatical devotion."

Arthur Koestler

@hellenes

Γεια σου και ‘σενα πατριωτη!

I did not mean to imply anything about your sources, what I said was that the quotes that you posted where ambiguous, in the sense that they could be taken to mean something else as well, i.e. what I myself wrote.

@Idomeneas

Bringing big guns and various sources means: one cites sources supporting one’s point of view, then the other cites sources supporting their own point of view, and on and on.. meanwhile all these “sources” are mostly motivated by political, nationalistic or monetary reasons or is simply someone’s - no matter how eminent a person- point of view. In the end, sadly, no one will change their adopted positions not even by one iota..
Also the “bane of the Greeks” IMHO, is not so much what you said it is, but rather two other things ; that we rest far too much on moldy laurels and our persistent attitude to blame others for our own misfortunes, especially the British for the first half of the 20th century and then the Americans after that..

Anyway, as others said earlier, this is hardly the place for such a topic-debate, this thread is about: “weird ass units”

O_Stratigos

[The Stranger]

Why are the archers 'eggy'?

Is this some form of Classical warfare that passed me by or what?

eggy = Egyptian

[Idomeneas]

Idomeneas, I was under the impression that Macedoians had a lot of Illyrian and Thracian blood as well as Dorian...

well i cant be sure about anyones family tree but what is important is that the main population was of greek origin. Foe example Themistocles mother Avrotonon was thracian that doesnt make him non greek.

Anyway my frustration derives from the fact that when somebody tries to make some crazy theory to excuse his existance mostly in political and geographic level (you know who imean) i feel obligated to respond.
Some years before theories of non greek macedonians would be laughed at. Now they are fashionable. I wonder why. Anyway i leave it here as it is not this threads or forum's area. If you like to further discuss it we can talk it over in backroom

[anonymous_joe]

Alexander's mother Epirot, so the Greeks were happy to call him a barbarian.


PS. thanks for explaining eggy.

[jerby]

greeks were happy to call anything that wasnt born in southern Greece Barbarians...

[Idomeneas]

Alexander's mother Epirot, so the Greeks were happy to call him a barbarian.


PS. thanks for explaining eggy.

Well to be true that couldnt be an issue even in ancient standaeds cause Molossoi were as it was believed descendents of Neoptolemos son of Achilleus. They were Pelasgoi in origin and that makes them more ancient than anybody except the Arcadians. Anyway the whole issue during ancient times started as a propaganda trying to boost Athenian spirit and offcourse the eternal localistic rivals between state-cities. How ironic that their own Iphicratians turned back as boomerang in the form of Macedonian phalanx.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

For the view of Epeirotes as barbaroi, we can thank/blame the eighth and seventh century Greek colonists. When they arrived with their prior colonial experience and maritime focus and polis centered life, they branded the Epeirotes as barbarians. Maybe blame Thucydides in this too - his claim that the Aitolians armed themselves "just like barbarians" (1.5.3-6.2) influenced other people. The Aitolians, he said, were similar to the "Ozoloan Locrians, the Acarnanians, and those in the continental lands (i.e., Epeiros)". But Thucydides isn't making stuff up entirely. The reasons for his viewpoint probably had a lot to do with the colonists who settled near the Aitolians and (by sea) related to other peoples their encounters with people who certainly didn't see eye-to-eye with them. He sees things from the point of view of the people of Ambracia and Amphilochian Argos, the inhabitants of these colonies. And it's very interesting to note that he says that the people of Amphilochian Argos which really was not a colony, but a much older city with a Trojan war era foundation story, needed citizens, and asked some of the people of Ambracia (which was a more recent colony) to come in and join them. Thucydides says that "adopting the Ambracians' language, they became Hellenes". It was not the blood but the change of language and colonization that mattered to him. Thucydides would have classified the non-Hellenized Amphilochians as barbarians, but those with the culture and language suddenly are Hellenes. So does it even matter what Thucydides thought anyway? What did the people of Epeiros think? They believed the nostoi stories that Pyrrhus/Neoptolemos was the ancestor of their ancient (Molossian) kings.

I'm not saying that there are any simple answers. Or that I have them, but neither way is it clear cut and either way it all depends on the point of view of whoever seems to be talking at the moment. If people want to go by blood or by customs or by whatever, they're likely to get different answers in different places. If someone asks me were the Epeirotes greek, I'll just say "sorta" and smile. It will invariably lead to a "why?", which will then lead to a much more accurate and interesting discussion of the nuances, and the more folks know, the better.