Requesting beta team access

[Divinus Arma]

i do believe he means pyrhus (sp?..can never get him right...) of epirus. =)

but pyro of epidermus sounds cool too =)

deguerra

Ya. That guy. The greek who the Romans defeated in Southern Italy prior to the punic wars.

I think the inclusion of this character at the outset of the campaign makes it more historically neato. After reading about the origins of the very very very early Roman army, this event really set the stage for them. It was after all, a demonstration of the power of the new tactics against the classic phalanx warfare of the greeks.

I don't want to turn this into a historical argument, so I will just say that this is my interpretation of this early conflict.

(btw, I was making fun of his name. teehee silly rabbit, trix are for...)

yargh.

[Simetrical]

Just tell the people with the egos to skip the whole "my mod is better than yours"-attitude and force them to work together!

A problem arises when one of the mod's leaders hates the other mod. As to comparing notes, well, RTR has relatively little historical research—but RTR has most of our sources compiled. EB has much more historical research—but it's generally not available for outside examination (because it would be ridiculous for a professional historian to note down his source for every tiny detail of everything). So EB has no need of RTR's historical research, and RTR can't access EB's historical research. Not much exchange of historical notes possible there. Mechanical ideas, sure, and those are pretty freely exchanged—EB is now using RTR's unified Rome, for instance, and RTR is now using EB's unique buildings idea.

For once, I felt a little angst going into battle after my first experence on 'emperor' against "Athenain hoplites" (which, according to records on the Peloponnesian War, were good but vastly inferior to Spartan Hoplites- and that makes me wonder how supercharged uber the Spartans are in 4.6, 5.6, whatever since I have yet to encounter them)

I was directed to make the Athenian Hoplites slightly inferior to the Spartans, and the Corinthians slightly inferior to the Athenians, if I remember correctly. There should be about two points' attack and defense difference between each tier, so nothing major. As most things in RTR 5.4, the research that went into that decision was probably a bit shoddy, but we're improving—the Seleucids, Ptolemaics, Romans, Parthians, and one or two other factions should see a big leap in accuracy in 6.0, with more factions to follow.

The way I see it, the difference between RTR and EB is something like this:



I should've extended it more, so you could see what it would be like by January of next year or whatever, but you get the picture. Realism-wise, RTR was clearly superior for the past nine months, just because EB didn't release anything. Once EB is released, I expect it will be substantially more realistic for quite some time, with both steadily increasing until they're roughly equal.

-Simetrical

[khelvan]

EB is now using RTR's unified Rome, for instance, and RTR is now using EB's unique buildings idea.

TESTING the idea! Nothing is set in stone yet, and the configuration for the open beta is yet to be revealed.

[Big_John]

ha, that's a sweet graph simetrical.. very scientific.

[jerby]

@simetrical.
That is very honest of you. altough it probably doenst mena anyhting to you, you've gained my sympathy. But i think 6.0 will be just as good as EB in term of modding quality.

[Valuk]

Well about quality mods don't forget Blue lotus
But yeah its probably good to have two mods like RTR and EB to compete between each other Better end product
Im against monopoly in RTW

[Big_John]

could khelvan and/or simetrical give us an idea on what they see as the philosophical differences (if any) between RTR and EB? or is it pretty much all a matter of method, not philosophy? also, why did khelvan leave RTR back in the day? not looking for anything too specific or breathtaking, just curious.

[khelvan]

I'm sorry, but regardless of what has happened in another forum, I don't think it is appropriate to go into this. It can only lead to emnity, and there has been enough of that going around lately.

[Big_John]

well poop.

[Region]

Hey, I know what will make everyone cheerful. Another preview!

Right, Khelvan?

[khelvan]

Don't ask me, I'm not doing it anymore. Our new preview person should be saying hello sometime soon, though it is looking more and more like he's going to save his introductions for the next preview.

[Big_John]

EB's all about the surprises huh?

[econ21]

Don't ask me, I'm not doing it anymore.

Well, Khelvan, you did a great job while you were doing it - they were a real labour of love. Thanks!

More on topic, I just downloaded RTR. EB looks great and I may consider trying the beta. But I confess I prefer polished games and RTR seems pretty tried and tested. With it being my first mod, I was also pleased that it does not deviate too dramatically from vanilla (yes there are many differences, but sufficient similarities for me to feel comfortable). I rather like some of CA's game design decisions and am a little saddened when modders through away the baby with the bathwater (sheds a tear for the Senate in RTR 6.0...).

[Steppe Merc]

Simon, EB is also going to be quite polished when it's ready. Otherwise, we'd just release it right now.

However, I would urge everyone not in the lucky group of people like myself or closed beta testers to play RTR, or any of the other quality mods. (Almost) Any mod beat the vanilla game, from my experience.

And about the Rome thing, I happen to agree with RTR's desicion to do so. The senate was ahistorical, and a waste to all factions that aren't Rome. I understand that many people may like Rome (for some crazy reason ), but I believe that an overall game improvement would result from any mods desicion to do so.

Oh, and I know who the new previewer is!

[Sarcasm]

Oh, and I know who the new previewer is!

You horse-hugging steppe barbarians are cruel, cruel people.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

More on topic, I just downloaded RTR. EB looks great and I may consider trying the beta. But I confess I prefer polished games and RTR seems pretty tried and tested.

My, my, Simon Appleton! What do you think was one of the main reasons we have been at it since Jan 2004? We do not like to release unpolished products. That is why we haven't released any version yet.

[econ21]

Sorry, guys, I did not mean to insinuate that EB will be shoddy. I expect great things from EB, but I also think it will be a very complex mod and so will be hard to get right in one shot. One of the old timers' arguments about RTWs failings (in AI and in MP balance) are that they partly arise from the increased complexity (more units, more open campaign map etc) compared to say, STW. But for all my talk, I know I won't be able to resist downloading the EB beta.

On the Senate, I really like the direction and rewards it gives to the Roman - rather like the glorious achievements of MTW. But then, as a fan of story-based role-playing games, I like that sort of stuff. Others value player freedom or historical accuracy more.

Playing the slower combat of RTR reminded me a little of the mods for Steel Panthers. That was a great game - probably consumed more hours of wargamers lives than any other computer game in the 1990s - but was rather "beer and pretzels" with lots of unhistorical features and imbalances (e.g. infantry and artillery were woefully underpowered, orders of battle were not accurate etc). A great team of modders (actually rival teams) worked for years diligently making it more historical. They are still at it now. And they succeeded - the mod I know best, SPWW2, is a pretty hardcore wargame now, rather like Advanced Squad Leader. However, personally, I find SPWW2 very hard to play - it is just too slow, laboriously chipping away at the enemy. Scenarios take evenings, when they used to take an hour.

I don't know how I'll end up finding RTR (or EB). I have high expectations but I've been warned that RTR is slog. In a vanilla RTW campaign you may play 150+ battles but few last more than ten minutes or so. The lightning speed makes each RTW battle much less memorable and satisfying than those in MTW and STW, but it does propell the campaign on. We may dislike some of CA's game design decisions, but I suspect in many cases they had their reasons. Give me a choice between playing a game and a simulation, and I'll play the game anyday.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Talking about what goes into EB is great, but the title of this thread might be misinterpreted (though it's not by an EB member) and lead to something we don't necessarily want. I'd politely suggest we move on to other topics.

Like nice green balloons for example:

[Region]

Oh, and I know who the new previewer is!

It better not be someone who likes to use a lot of teasers! No holding back please.

[Big_John]

the title of this thread might be misinterpreted

the thread has been hacked!! i suspect "deepthroatrtw"..

[IrishMike]

Hmmm..... I knew EB secretly was a front for the FBI.

[jerby]

Don't ask me, I'm not doing it anymore. Our new preview person should be saying hello sometime soon, though it is looking more and more like he's going to save his introductions for the next preview.

That makes me sad.
-either its because we drove you nuts (when I/we were just havign a laugh, not at the cost of you)
-or you're to busy to do it, and I'm sad for you that you dont have the time to work on you baby.

eitherway, good luck khelvan!

[Region]

Yeah, thanks khelvan for taking a lot of care to make those previews. I hope the next person will do the same.

[TheTank]

Khelvan thank you for your great previews and updates
I enjoyed the updates/previews very much
I hope you didn't stop making the updates because of spoiled fans

[Steppe Merc]

Nah, he had a bunch of things to do with the new version of the internal beta. At least, I think so...

You horse-hugging steppe barbarians are cruel, cruel people.

Not to our horses.

[Divinus Arma]

Talking about what goes into EB is great, but the title of this thread might be misinterpreted (though it's not by an EB member)

It has already been changed once ( and not by me).

I don't know how I'll end up finding RTR (or EB). I have high expectations but I've been warned that RTR is slog. In a vanilla RTW campaign you may play 150+ battles but few last more than ten minutes or so. The lightning speed makes each RTW battle much less memorable and satisfying than those in MTW and STW, but it does propell the campaign on. We may dislike some of CA's game design decisions, but I suspect in many cases they had their reasons. Give me a choice between playing a game and a simulation, and I'll play the game anyday.

I have not found RTR battles to be unbearable. The only REALLY long battles are those with hoplites. Man, that will aggravate you at first... but then you will be overjoyed because the game is actaully a challenge again, YAY! The campaign is gruelling, but only because difficulty has been ratched way up.

I am very pleased with RTR at the moment, though I continue to await EB.

DA