Yob Britain

[ShadesWolf]

The following is an extract from an article in today Mail by Alexander Bell.

Has a society ever changed so much so quickly?
In 1955, the American anthropologist G.Gorer wrote" The English are certainly amongst the most peaceful, gentle, courteous and orderly population that teh civilized world has ever seen. The control of aggression has gone to such remarkable lengths that you hardly ever see a fight in a bar and football crowds are orderly as church meetings.

Those words could hardly sound more hollow in the england of 50 years later, where anti-social behaviour prevails, where chief constables admit they have lost control of their cities, where feral children wander without restraint, where drug-taking and gun crime is rife, where family structures have broken down and authority has collapsed.

Tony Blair is quite right to speak of his anxiety about social decline, although his attitide smacks of hypocrisy, given that his government has wilfully dissolved so many of teh bonds that used to hold our society together.

From its vast expansion of teh Welfare state to its enthusiasm for uncontrolled immigration, New LAbour has been an engine of social destruction. Its a grim reflection of eight years of labour rule that we have now amongst the highest rates of lone parenthood, pensioner poverty, drug abuse and teenage pregnancy in europe, while standards of education and healthcare are falling.

I must admit I found myself nodding in agreement with this article and felt it my duty to share it with you. Ever as I know I will get a lot of stick from the more Left sided persons that visit this site. Everything is not roses. Welcome for the Labour Britain !!!!

[A.Saturnus]

Any numbers?

[ShadesWolf]

No its a new book - The Great Abdication by Alexander Deane (Published by Imprint Academic)

The article goes on the say that Labour are not the only people to blame but the middle classes are equally at fault.

"Rather than upholding thier own role models, the revel in the unedifying expliots of downmarket celebrities such as Wayne Rooney and his fiancee Coleen Mcloughlin, the royal couple of Chav Britain.

Where once teh middle class strove to understand teh higher aspects of culture - an outlook that led to the huge success of TV series such as K.Clarkes Civilization in 1969 - the today delight in following the inmates of C4 Big Brother."

[Al Khalifah]

Its a by-product of modern British celebrity worship culture. Our celebrities have become our new Gods in a sense, because they seem to spell out the moral values and codes for the rest of us to abide by. This was perfectly acceptable when celebrities were respectable people who had achieved their position by merit and who would be cut down greatly by society for social misconduct and impropriety. Now our celebrities seem to have no moral code and in the world of 'do-anything-to-be-famous' television, the most disgraceful members of society are put on a stage to the country as a role-model. They also seem to be able to get away with anything, as there seems to be no such thing as bad publicity these days.
Blaming younger members of society is extremely harsh. I find anyone under the age of 50 to be just as guilty for this problem.

[ShadesWolf]

Some good words said there, cant disagree with that

[BDC]

I still prefer to live in modern Britain than 1950's Britain though. Wasn't a very healthy society then either. It was poor, racist, war-ravaged and intolerent.

[ShadesWolf]

I still prefer to live in modern Britain than 1950's Britain though. Wasn't a very healthy society then either. It was poor, racist, war-ravaged and intolerent.

Wasn't a very healthy society - Yes we had no money
It was poor - Yes 6 years of war and the loss of the empire would make us a little poorer, money had been spent on savings the world from evil
racist - define ? in todays terms probably yes
war-ravaged - yes agree
intolerent - to what, to who ? sorry dont understand the point

[BDC]

Wasn't a very healthy society - Yes we had no money
It was poor - Yes 6 years of war and the loss of the empire would make us a little poorer, money had been spent on savings the world from evil
racist - define ? in todays terms probably yes
war-ravaged - yes agree
intolerent - to what, to who ? sorry dont understand the point

Homosexuals, foreigners, single mothers, basically anyone who didn't fit the mould and wasn't rich enough to just be classed as eccentric.

[JAG]

Whats new about this wolf? All I see is Mail reporters / commentators / readers doing what they love best, looking back on their youth and 'better times' and making out like all that followed from that time to present was an attempt to destroy their blissful, brilliant lives.

[zelda12]

Heh, all I see is Conservative Spin disguised as a book. You may have noticed that he picks up on immigration. The only problem there is that immigration is only a big deal because Tory rags have been crying to the sky how labour policies are letting millions of illegal’s into the country, and scare mongering people. A part of the problem this country faces, intolerance, is the direct result of Tory big wigs trying to score points.

Yob culture is mainly there in the youth because of a combination of Bad parenting and the T.V Generation effect. There is no quick fix and it was bound to happen as information transfer and media growth well exceeded the Human coping mechanisms for adapting to rearing our young in difficult circumstances.

And to be fair the health Service is getting better, as is the School system, the reason they are behind their European counterparts is because the previous Tory administration left them starved for money and to quite frank [...] them up.

[ShadesWolf]

And to be fair the health Service is getting better, as is the School system, the reason they are behind their European counterparts is because the previous Tory administration left them starved for money and to quite frank [...] them up.

Erm the health service is not getting better, you know have waiting lists to get onto the waiting list and once you have had your initial meeting you dont even count on the numbers.

As for schools, you have to balance the books, you cannot spend, spend spend, where is the money coming from. We are borrowing it. If you dont have the money you cant spend it, that is something todays society cant get into the thick heads. All you have to do is look at the national debt to work that one out. Everybody says under New Labour we per person are far better off, yet savings are down, and debt is up. arent we a clever bunch of people.

Things look good for our future dont they.

[BDC]

Of course the health service is in trouble. Originally you had a doctors appointment, they diagnosed you with something, gave you morphine and a bed, and if you lived that was nice. Now they have ridiculously expensive machinery and treatments. Plus it has been underfunded for the Thatcher years.

[zelda12]

Erm the health service is not getting better, you know have waiting lists to get onto the waiting list and once you have had your initial meeting you dont even count on the numbers.

As for schools, you have to balance the books, you cannot spend, spend spend, where is the money coming from. We are borrowing it. If you dont have the money you cant spend it, that is something todays society cant get into the thick heads. All you have to do is look at the national debt to work that one out. Everybody says under New Labour we per person are far better off, yet savings are down, and debt is up. arent we a clever bunch of people.

Things look good for our future dont they.

Yes! Because I'd rather be living under a bunch of Socialist liars than under a bunch of racist liars.

Waiting lists are up because the country as a whole is a lot unhealthier and we are spiralling downward. Yet still the money is being put in trying to shore up the leaks, trying to get the old girl working properly again. Its not working excellently yet but its a damn sight better than it was before 1997. What would have happened is we had had 8 years of Tory mismanagement and low spending if I may ask? The answer is we wouldn't have a NHS at all; we'd have a crumbling mess. You want proof the Health service is improving you look at the new hospitals being built. A prime example being Kings College London.

As to education I suggest you visit a school. You'll find almost every head teacher will sing Labour's praises. They are labouring under extreme pressure to educate the next generation and the Labour party has given them the cash to do it.

As to the spectre of debt you may have noticed that we don't really have the money to go around, and if we raise taxes any more to cover things the Tories will complain. If we cut back elsewhere the Tories will complain about Labour short-changing Britain. If we cut the military budget the Tories will complain. There really is no way we can win, the services in the country need the cash and sooner or later you are all going to realise that you can't be selfish and hoard your wealth away if you want to live in Britain and expect the high class services.

[Tribesman]

And of course things were soooo different back in the 50slink
Maybe he wants to go back further to seek his past Utopia , how about the 30's , oh dear ...race riots , political riots , violent strikes. How about back to the Victorian age , poverty , disease , riots , gin houses , opium dens , rampant criminality .
Just because a rag like the mail wants to cite an author who seems to believe that things used to be so wonderful doesn't mean its true . It has always been the same and will always be the same .

[ShadesWolf]

Gentlemen you are missing the point. Any muppet can spend spend spend when it is somebody elses money, and who cares somebody else will sort it out and then we can say yar de dar de dar........

During the Thatcher years they tried to balance the books
ie money in = money out

If you dont have the money you cant spend the money. Hence by dumping some nationalised industry that was not contributing, you reduce your spend hence in the long run u have more money.

ie
Steel
Coal
Motors

All were not making profit and costing to much to run, but hay its a hard world so you have to make them redundant. Money is what makes the world go round. Without capitalism society falls apart.

Can you name me one state that was left wing and has been successful. I cant think of any !

[Kagemusha]

[QUOTE=Can you name me one state that was left wing and has been successful. I cant think of any ![/QUOTE]

All Scandinivian coyntrys have had Socialdemocrats in their Government as majority allmost the whole of the 20th century,But SocialDemocracy is not communism by far.

[doc_bean]

I think the decline of your polite British society started a while before New Labour though, you can blame them for not taking care of the problem, but for causing it ? That's going a bit far.

[A.Saturnus]

Let me repeat my question: any numbers??

[Kagemusha]

Let me repeat my question: any numbers??

I dont think there will be any,thnk its mainly principle thing for them.

[ShadesWolf]

No Saturnus the article gave no numbers. As I stated previous it was a two page article, extracts from the guys book.

[A.Saturnus]

I dont think there will be any,thnk its mainly principle thing for them.

Well, the article says that now everything is worse in Britain than in the 50ties. For a good part, that is an empirical question. The claim cannot be evaluated without data. Without numbers, the discussion seems rather pointless to me.

[Kagemusha]

I agree.Without any stats its just going to be "yes vs. no",which doent lead to anything.

[King Henry V]

Yes! Because I'd rather be living under a bunch of Socialist liars than under a bunch of racist liars.

Waiting lists are up because the country as a whole is a lot unhealthier and we are spiralling downward. Yet still the money is being put in trying to shore up the leaks, trying to get the old girl working properly again. Its not working excellently yet but its a damn sight better than it was before 1997. What would have happened is we had had 8 years of Tory mismanagement and low spending if I may ask? The answer is we wouldn't have a NHS at all; we'd have a crumbling mess. You want proof the Health service is improving you look at the new hospitals being built. A prime example being Kings College London.

As to education I suggest you visit a school. You'll find almost every head teacher will sing Labour's praises. They are labouring under extreme pressure to educate the next generation and the Labour party has given them the cash to do it.

As to the spectre of debt you may have noticed that we don't really have the money to go around, and if we raise taxes any more to cover things the Tories will complain. If we cut back elsewhere the Tories will complain about Labour short-changing Britain. If we cut the military budget the Tories will complain. There really is no way we can win, the services in the country need the cash and sooner or later you are all going to realise that you can't be selfish and hoard your wealth away if you want to live in Britain and expect the high class services.

I think Zelda is definitely a Labour Party member, with all this "we" business. I read a year ago in Private Eye, where it was saying that all the doctors on Election Night said that a Conservative victory would mean the end of the NHS. The doctors who had made that call now say that things aren't much better.

[Tribesman]

During the Thatcher years they tried to balance the books
ie money in = money out
In the Thatcher years they tried to balance the books by writing off massive debts that were owed to the government , sold national assets for a pittance to their buddies , and then proceeded to give their buddies bigger subsidies than the industries had recieved when they were nationalised . Then had to go cap in hand to Europe for restructuring and regeneration funds as so many areas had been completely devestated by the governments actions .
Wasn't it the Thatcher government that decided to make education profitable in the very short term by selling off the school sports fields . Now they complain that children are getting fat as the schools don't do enough sports anymore .
given that his government has wilfully dissolved so many of teh bonds that used to hold our society together.
Wasn't it Maggie herself who said there is no such thing as society .

[Steppe Merc]

Social decline? If you have a gang problem, that is certaintly bad, but I don't see how it would be as extreme as

anti-social behaviour prevails, where chief constables admit they have lost control of their cities, where feral children wander without restraint, where drug-taking and gun crime is rife, where family structures have broken down and authority has collapsed.

I of course don't live in England, but I for one fail to see how drug taking is bad ( ), or how "yobs" destroy families...

[Watchman]

Huh. Can't say I saw any of that when I was in the UK couple of years back. But, granted, it *was* a fairly brief (about two weeks) trip...

And ShadesWolf ? You might find it interesting to know that human civilization and states have survived some eight thousand years (give or take two K) without anything classifiable as "capitalism" by modern standards, which is a concept max five hundred years old. Its real breakthrough only came with the Industrial Revolution in the mid-1800s, and by the end of the same century most states were enacting policies descripable by modern terms as "leftist" chiefly to contain and reduce the "collateral damage" it caused (like overworked and unpaid and duly restless factory workers)...

And, of course, we Scandinavians have done right fine under a pretty long spate of decidely leftist, social-democrat policies and governements.

[bmolsson]

Sure, English people are peaceful..... Unfortunately that makes the English womens rather boring and inactive when it comes to sexual activity. Long live the immigration.....

[Tribesman]

The good old days
Things used to be so much different before all the hoodies and yobs appeared under Blair .
Nostalgia , the realm of the forgetfull .

[King Henry V]

Well the Guardian is only the leftist version of the Daily Mail, so if you think that's just a load lies to undermine Labour, then the Guardian is a load of lies used to undermine the Conservatives.

[Tribesman]

Henry , then read my earlier link to yob youth culture in the 50s . All this crap about violence and the decline of society is rubbish , you could pick any decade or century from the past 2000 years or more and find that it has always existed and people have always complained that it wasn't like it when they were young . Its pure bullshit .
Hey its even part of the tourist industry now , take the tour of London to see the scenes of the gang violence , robberies and shootings from the golden age of the 50s

where anti-social behaviour prevails, where chief constables admit they have lost control of their cities, where feral children wander without restraint, where drug-taking and gun crime is rife, where family structures have broken down and authority has collapsed.
That part of the original article could have been written about Victorian London . If you take out the guncrime bit it could be Elizabethan London .