Arthurian : Total War

[Ianofsmeg16]

Hi Guys,
Are we still making this for BI?
If so i see no point in me working on the map as for all i know the files could completely change in BI, i leave it up to you...

[Agraes]

i know the files could completely change in BI, i leave it up to you...

As I have read in the BI FAQ, files will not change, but it still a risk that we can't use the same, thought I think there is no problem for the tga. Lot of mods team who begun work on vanilla have planned to work on BI and have always done their map, so... you can wait if you want, but you can go, it is as you wish

[Agraes]

Got a lot of problems with RTW Graphic...

But I have updated the unit list with more images, and scanned some plates from Osprey.

Here 'Pictish Warriors' :


Picts versus Strathclyders Britons, maybe the battle shown on the Aberlamno stone.


Pict Mormaer and Pict pikeman.


Pictish weaponry.

[Ianofsmeg16]

Hey, We could use the banner the Strathclyders are holding as a banner for strathclyde, Green dragon on a white field

[Agraes]

This is a PM bdh send me on TWC :

i don't know if you've heard or not, but i've been working on a map for rtr and imperia romana that is 5x the size of the current rtw map, but due to a small error the map became 25 times the size of the rtw map.
if you like, i could give you the map_heights.tga part of the map that contains britain. it is vairly complete and rather nice. i could even modify it somewhat so that the mountains stand out more (in the original they were downsized to be in comparison with other larger mountains)
from there you could do all the other parts of the map based on that fairly quickly

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...82&page=4&pp=20
heres a pic if you would like to see
the main map is at the bottom of the thread.
if you need britain bigger, i have lots of data i can use to remake a bigger one fairly quickly

So Ian, I guess he will make a very good map for the scale and the heights, then all you will have to do is to add the provinces and such things, the task will be much easier for you !

[Ianofsmeg16]

yes, tell him yes!!!!

[Agraes]

I have done a better province map, but not included irish and gallic provinces yet.

[Ranika]

Will Ireland be divided up further? Ulster needs to be cut up to have Dalriatta/Orgallia (the eastern coast of Ulster, controlled by Dal Riada), with the rest being appropriately divided and under the control of the Ui Neill; at least 2 provinces, with Ard Macha (Armagh) and Emain Macha (Navan). Mide could just be one province maybe, but should be a bit larger, and have Teamhaidh (not Tara or Teamhair; those names weren't used yet). The Mumainha only controlled Munster, but it was divided in three/four regions; Tuadmumu (Thomond/northern Munster), Urmumu (southern Munster), Desmumu (eastern Munster), and Ogaillon ('Galway'). Laigin (Leinster) was divided in two to three regions depending on the time (Orriagh in the northwest, Laigin in the south, and Roirragh/Bregan in the northeast). Connacht was divided into a few regions as well, Ard Mammo (Mayo), Amroi (southern Connacht), Inista (the islands), and Ogaillon ('Galway'; sometimes, actually more often under control of Connacht).

[Agraes]

Yes, I plan to PM you about it for the location of the differents irish provinces, this is the curent list we have :

IRELAND :
- Ulaidh – Raithmor
- Oirgaillia – Ard Macha (Armagh)
- Ui Neillia – Cenell Neill
- Cenell Riada - ?
- Laigin - Dun Ailinne
- Connaght – Cruachu
- Tuad - Killardan
- Midhe - Teamhaidh
- Desmumu - Caiseal
- Eoghanaght – Orliglin
- Inisharanna - Inishmhor

It seems that you have more provinces in your previous message, or the more provinces we had, the better it is ! For the Britons, I have add some provinces/kingdoms that don't exist at the start date (like Bro-Erec, Caer-Wenddoleu...) but will help have a lot of provinces.

So can you list all the provinces like this, with their cities, and made a very simple map to show me their location ?

Here a map background :

[Ranika]

Those are all fine provinces; I'll see about making a rather simple map. Dividing up the larger regions would be nice (considering the size of British provinces); so cutting Connacht in three would be nice. However, on that map, you don't have the isles, so I don't know if you'd intend to use it as a province.

[Agraes]

Maybe the main isles, you can draw them quicly like I have done on the original map for Man, Mona, Tanet and Wight

[Atheist_Peace]

This mod looks very cool, are you guys making any good progress?

Sorry that sounded stupid and rude, what i mean is like do you guys have realistic hopes for a release and do you have a good base of progress on your mod?

[Ianofsmeg16]

Maybe the main isles, you can draw them quicly like I have done on the original map for Man, Mona, Tanet and Wight

So are the Provinces of Britain sorted, it's just Ireland, Frankia and Pictland that need sorting....

Sorry that sounded stupid and rude, what i mean is like do you guys have realistic hopes for a release and do you have a good base of progress on your mod?

Most of the stuff we have done so far is research, and as this time is not very well documented,we need all the research we get..
i have done some work on the map but i am waiting for confirmation from agreas about bdh cutting up his HUGE map for us

[BDH]

i already sent it out
its only the heights though.....so have fun doing EVERYTHING else smeg

[BDH]

[Ianofsmeg16]

thats Awesome BDH, you certainly saved me some work, how did you get the map to be so realistic?

[Agraes]

Most of the stuff we have done so far is research, and as this time is not very well documented,we need all the research we get..

Much of the research work is done :
UNITS RESEARCH
- we got all briton units (except one or two more AoR units), Thrashaholic will finish the descriptions.
- we got all gaelic units.
- we got all pictish units, Spongly have to done descriptions of our last find
- we got the main part of the saxon standart units, we need their AoR units.
- we lack of the units names and accurates descriptions for the Franks units, they will also recruit gallic, goths, burgondes and alemani units when conquest their respective territory.

PROVINCES RESEARCH
- we have completed Briton and Saxon provinces lists, thought lack of cities names for the Saxon.
- same for the Picts
- as you see, Ranika will show us the differents irish provinces
- Brittany is done.
- we lack of Gaul civitas

FACTIONS RESEARCH
- faction list is done
- factions descriptions are to make, but no emergency !
- we got ideas for faction symbols but need other ones

So...
Ian is working on the map, I think it will be easiest for him with BDH great help
We don't know much so far about the new tools BI will had for modders... hoping it will be great (and easy !).

Nobody in the team got strong experience on modding RTW thought
Holidays are going to their end, it means less time for us (for my part I will have a computer at Brest where I do my studies, but not until one or two months, anyway I will go back home the weekend).
And no skinner/modeler yet

I think BI will attract more people to work on the mod.
I really want to carry out this project. Since my first computer I wanted a game to play Arthur and the Britons, and today I can do it with the RTW engine, so... I hope that one day we both play on Arthurian TW

[Ranika]

This has some further stuff added; not very pretty, lacks the settlement placements/names, but has provinces.

[BDH]

great news, my big map (now made smaller) is working. its 3x the size of rtr map. Here's a pic of britain. imagine that, except less flat ;)

[Agraes]

@Ranika

That's exactly what we need !
I have updated the map with your provinces



Can you check the following list, give me the capital for each (and if possible the actual name), maybe the faction who belongs the territory at the beginning for some rebels provinces ? (Also useful for 'Rebels' factions, and of course if one day we can have more than 20 factions we will add the others Irish factions).

IRELAND, Dal Riada :
- Dal Riatta - ?

IRELAND, Ui Neill :
- Ulaidh – Raithmor
- Oirulaidh -
- Ui Neillia – Cenell Neill
- Oirgaillia – Ard Macha (Armagh)

IRELAND, Mumainha :
- Tuad - Killardan
- Desmumu - Caiseal
- Urmumu - Orliglin
- Gabhonnaoi??

IRELAND, Rebels :
- Mide - Teamhaidh (Tara)
- Goirmide -
- Oiriagh -
- Roirragh -
- Inisharanna - Inishmhor
- Laigin - Dun Ailinne
- Ard Mammo – Cruachu
- Oigallion -
- Amroi -
- Sloaigha -

Eventually (if you have time to do so) you can add the capital by just a black point in each province

Also, have you got some ideas for more pictish provinces ? Like Domon or Skye maybe ? Shetlands isles will also be featured.

BRITAIN, Pictland :
- Cat - Catichean
- Fidach - Craig Phadrig?
- Ce - Cechean (Keith)
- Circind - Aberlemno?
- Fotla - Restenneth
- Fortiu - Dundurn?
- Fibb - Abernethy
- Aerdrognan (Orkney) - Aerdrognan

BRITAIN, Dal Riada :
- Cenell Baetain - Iona?
- Cenell Loairn - ?
- Cenell Gabrain - Dunadd

@BDH
Awesome...

[Ranika]

Some minor errors in province allocation, but looking good. Settlement locations, except those that remain present in some way, are pretty hard to determine; my suggestion is to place them in the most strategic pain-in-the-ass region as possible (that's how they placed their cities and forts, so it makes sense to do so). Some that are known: Eahmain Macha (modern Navan), Ard Macha (modern Armagh), Cruacha (relatively close to Castlebar, though it actually seems to have moved a bit), Killardan (a little southwest of Limerick, but still on the coast), Breganna (modern Wicklow was built over it), Orligin (Cork was developed out of Orligin). I know I'm missing a few, but that should help, I hope.

Province name - Settlement name - Rebels name (Done by the local controlling tribe or 'sub-kingdom' name)

IRELAND, Dal Riada :
- Dal Riatta - Dun Ranma (This is the name of the fortress on the coast according to the 'West' cycle, that was captured by the Ui Neill, and effectively expelled the Dal Riadan kingdom from Ireland (though the Dal Riadans still acted as if they were one of the kingdoms)) - Dal Riatta

IRELAND, Ui Neill :
- Ulaidh – Raithmor - Volunta
- Oirulaidh - Eahmain Macha - Eoradha
- Ui Neillia – Cenell Neill - Ui Neill
- Oirgaillia – Ard Macha - Ui Daron
- Mide - Teamhaidh - Ui Oir Neill ('East Niells'; the Ui Neill controlled Teamhaidh as defacto leaders at the time, hence their later claims to 'proper' title of high king, though eventually the east Niells split from the rest of the Ui Neill; also important to note, this is not a big place at the time, it was originally intended just for the families of those who worked in the temples/churches at the hills, so it hadn't really built up much yet)

IRELAND, Mumainha :
- Tuad - Killardan - Ui Broann
- Desmumu - Caiseal - Ui Cormac
- Urmumu - Orliglin - Ui Conchobar
- Gabhonnaoi (Yes, this should be Mumainha, Conglach of Desmumu controlled the chiefs here as his vassals) - Mondonnan - Gabhona

IRELAND, Rebels :
- Goirmide - Dun Rann - Ui Conn
- Oiriagh - Dun Riagh - Riaghan
- Roirragh - Breganna - Braigan
- Inisharanna - Inishmhor - Aranna
- Laigin - Dun Ailinne - Laigini
- Ard Mammo – Cruachu - Connaghta
- Oigallion - Dun Badon - Badon
- Amroi - Dun Amroi - Amroi
- Sloaigha - Rethconn - Relliagh

[Agraes]

Ok, I have updated the map and the province list in consequence

[Atheist_Peace]

Just to let everyone know, you can find Arthurian TW's official forum here: http://s10.invisionfree.com/Imperium...ex.php?act=idx

[Agraes]

We will take this thread active thought, but it is far clearest to have one thread per important subject

A Saxon axeman :





This one can be a special unit for one of the factions ? A kind of champion unit ?

[Agraes]

We have decided to make Ynis Manaw a very special faction, Manx can recruit both briton and gaelic units. This is their unit list so far :

As decided, the Ynis Manaw & Galwyddel faction will have a mix of Gaelic and Britons units. At the period their elite was brythonic so they will be able to recruit elite briton units.

Cavalry :


Marchomawr (Heavy cavalry)
Britons were well known in the dark ages for their cavalry. In the poem 'y Gododdin', by the bard Aneurin, 300 British horsemen fought Angle invaders at Cathraeth in the kingdom of Gododdin and only one returned, Aneurin himself. The Machromawr are made up of men from the richest warrior households who can afford a good horse, a spatha, a round shield, a spangelhelm and chain mail or scale armour. These well armoured powerful horsemen make a formidable opponent, but must be commanded correctly to be truly devestating in battle.
(Very expensive, strong charge, good attack, good defense, small unit, sword or/and spear, scale or chain mail armor, spangelhem, red cloack, round shield).


Marchogluoedd (Light cavalry)
Britain's wide variety of landscapes meant certain kingdoms, where the land was flatter and more horse-friendly, employed very cavalry oriented armies; the Marchogluoedd were the fast agile scouts of these armies. Riding the fastest horses their land could muster, these lightly armed and lightly armoured warriors would rush ahead of the main host peppering the enemies with javelins and making careful observations and reporting enemy positions to their commanders. These scouts wore no armour and carried no weapons apart from their javelins, which could of course act as improvised spears, as such they sould be kept as far away from combat as possible.

Guirran
(Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Teulu
Literally meaning “family”, the Teulu were the professional noble bodyguards of individual princes and chieftains. Although cavalry are generally not best suited to the rough hilly and mountainous terrain of Britain, the Teulu often rode into battle. Being of the nobility, the Teulu could afford the best of military equipment and were very well armed by Celtic standards: they wore chain or scale mail and helmets, and carried a shield and a lance, making them a pivotal force on the battlefield.

Strong charge
Very good Attack
Good Morale
Armoured
(Should be pretty expensive)

Infantry :

Rherel (Heavy spearmen)

Gwaywffynabwre (clan spearmen)

Bonheddwyr
The Bonheddwyr were free nobles, the elite foot soldiers of a Chieftain’s armies. Before a battle these champions would often walk forward in front of their army insulting, taunting and challenging their opposition (much to the amusement of their fellows), and be accompanied by shouting and jeering from the lower ranking men, and the din of their war trumpets. The Bonheddwr were lightly armoured, and the individual carried a spear, a small round shield and several javelins into battle.

40 man unit
fast
strong charge
very good attack
good defence
armoured
good morale


Rhyfelwyrmawr
"Great Warriors"

Campwyrau (Champions)

Rherel Manau (Heavy Manx Spearmen)
The Isle of Man is a tiny Island that lies in a Strategic position in the middle of the Irish Sea, therefore All manner of peoples look at it with hunger. This could be seen as a downfall or a reason to flee yet Mannanan and his heirs re-worked the army, producing armoured spearmen to fend off the raiders that come from Ireland, Rheged and and Gwynedd.
These men are perfectly equipped to fight in the hills of Mann. Disciplined, well armoured yet agile, the Manx Spearmen make a living out of fighting for their existence. They are recruited from the nobles or families with enought money to buy the Chainmail and heavy spears they take into battle.

Galwyddel nobles axemen*
Need to control Galwyddel.
Nobles from this region used two-handed wood axes sometimes, though they'd be decorated a bit.
Two-handed wood axes, chain mail, helmet.


Kernbannal
('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers)-
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts. Later, kerns would become the basic soldier of Irish armies, but in this period are only militia.

Sleanaghta
(Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Dal Riadans)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta
(Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Dal Riadans)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Gaemornaghta
(Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, or schiltron, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Dal Riadans)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Caeisornaghta
(Gaelic macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace} or modified work hammer, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for centuries, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head, or a hammer head. They are another arm of Gaelic infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Bowmen and skirmishers :

Soikernbannal
('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Maiobhanaghta
(Gaelic slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Gaels. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.


Saethwre (bowmen)

Rhyfelwyr
"Warrior"
Constant in fighting between the petty kingdoms of post-Roman Britain and skirmishes with the English led to the Britons becoming accustomed to war, they became a “jack of all trades”, perfectly suited to irregular warfare. Carrying a powerful bow, that could pin a horseman’s leg to his horse, a large sword and a small round shield, the prominent tactics of the Britons were to ambush the enemy, pepper them with arrows and then charge in for the kill.

60 man unit
fast
strong charge
good attack
no armour
poor morale


Ardu (Levies)

[Ianofsmeg16]

A very good Manx History Page , i havent read all of it, but from what i read you are right in your assumption that the Manx Were a mix of Gaelic and Breton, But it does make numerous references to a Manx language.
also it isnt Rosien in the Cashtal Rosien, it is Ruisen

[Ranika]

It is rather out-of-date, and has a very despotic view of Gaelic brehonism (far more despotic than it is understood to be today; but, this was written in 1900, and we knew fairly little then about Gaelic government due to banning and burning texts from earlier periods, though much has thankfully been rediscovered) and the development of Mann and Ireland, but the general information seems alright.

[Agraes]

Our 2 first skins, made by Spirit_of_Rob. They are WIP.


Saxon 'Cnithas' or mounted retainers.


Pictish Marchan.

[Ianofsmeg16]

I Just want to let you guys know that i'll be away in Utah for 9 days so i won't be able to get any work done, i'll try and pop into an internet cafe so i can look into whats happening, but work on the map will stop (i was in the process of doing map_ground types.tga

[RTW King]

Want me to do any skins?