Tech trees

[ScionTheWorm]

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass

[Rodion Romanovich]

"native to the deserts of Syria, Iran, India, and Tibet. It is sometimes known as the Half Ass or the Asiatic Ass [etc.]"

I think it should have a combat bonus in deserts and zone of recruit "Syria, Iran, India and Tibet"...

[ScionTheWorm]

"Known for their fierce and deadly weapon of crap, armies of the half-asses were feared by great generals and kings troughout the whole known world of medievel times"

[Rodion Romanovich]

Talk about ass-kicking :)

[ScionTheWorm]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099

2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?

3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity

[The Stranger]

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass

well we could use the Age of Chivalry's models for crossbows.

[ScionTheWorm]

I found this on crossbows.

*341 BCE --- Earliest reliable record of the use of the crossbow at the battle of Ma-ling in China.
*228 BCE --- Earliest factual evidence in the form of a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.
*1 st. cent. CE --- Heron records a form of hand balllista.
*4 th.-7 th. cents. CE --- Roman evidence from carvings and remains
*385 CE --- F. Vegetius Renatus in De Re Militari refers to crossbows
*947 CE --- Attack on Senlis driven off by crossbowmen.
*985 CE --- Crossbowmen in Lothair's expedition against Verdun.
*986 CE --- 'Lock bows' used in the battle of Hjorungsvag.
*ca. 1000 CE --- The crossbow comes into wide use.
*11 th. century CE --- Tiller is grooved to hold bolt (Wilkinson-Latham, p. 170)
*1066 CE --- Crossbows reintroduced into England by the Normans.
*1096 CE --- Anna Comnena records the use of crossbows in that year by the Normans.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099

First crossbows arrived around 800 AD in France I think. The HRE introduced them a lot later. Genua is located in Lotharingia and therefore they'd also, if they hadn't stopped existing before 900 AD or so, have had easy access to good crossbows early.

2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?

They'll have pretty similar tech trees. After all, 843 AD was when they were split up, from being the same empire before. But there will perhaps be some more unique units, I haven't found much yet.

Lotharingia is northern Italy as well as some regions between Germany and France - Friesia and Lorraine etc. The Kingdom of Lotharingia lost the northern provinces pretty quickly though.

3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity

Not yet, but you can ask me about those you don't know. I could make a map of it as soon as I get info on what the primary faction colors of all factions will be, and when I know which the provinces will be. Actually this isn't the first time I've needed those colors and the provinces, so I'll try to speed up the process of fixing those things.

[ScionTheWorm]

Trying to find out who should have knights and who should not...
Ok found this on knights

"In an effort to stem the tide of Viking raids, King Charles of France, gave land to a group of them in 911. This land was called Normandy, and a man named Rollo, became their first duke. While other Vikings preferred to fight on foot, these Norman's followed the fashion of the French and became formidable horsemen. When King Edward the Confessor of England died in 1066, his cousin, Duke William of Normandy, claimed he had been promised the throne. He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England. At this time the English still fought on foot and it was the horseman's advantage that helped William the Conqueror win England for himself. Signals on the battlefield were announced by horn."

(source: http://www.getmedievalonline.com/knights.html)

France has knights, but Normandy is not a faction yet at startdate? seems like it's 911 here

He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England.

I guess this means factions in England won't have knights before Normandy or someone else invade them?

[ScionTheWorm]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.

[Rodion Romanovich]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

Yes, I said I'd PROBABLY remove it for all factions. On second thoughts, I'll CERTAINLY remove it for all factions now

[ScionTheWorm]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...?

Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.

I agree. Should have some strong cavalry though after a while...

[Jarlabanke]

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

Maps

As far as I know Heavy cavalary wasn't employed by the english before the conquest.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...?

The level 4 units will hardly ever appear on the battlefields, and especially not for factions with starting positions such as those of the saxons, with so small cities etc. The mod will almost reach 1050 before they can appear, so I think it's accurate.

The unit called saxon knights is a medium cavalry unit of slightly lower quality and is supposed to reflect the best cavalry the saxons had before the norman conquest. The unit called saxon sergeant is a kind of cavalry to reflect the more common medium to low quality cavalry (no army ever has elite only, these are "the rest") the saxons had before the norman conquest.

[ScionTheWorm]

The level 4 units will hardly ever appear on the battlefields, and especially not for factions with starting positions such as those of the saxons, with so small cities etc. The mod will almost reach 1050 before they can appear, so I think it's accurate.

The unit called saxon knights is a medium cavalry unit of slightly lower quality and is supposed to reflect the best cavalry the saxons had before the norman conquest. The unit called saxon sergeant is a kind of cavalry to reflect the more common medium to low quality cavalry (no army ever has elite only, these are "the rest") the saxons had before the norman conquest.

great! thought we could agree on all those "shared units" as I call them, which we will include and for what factions. researching is fun

[ScionTheWorm]

1000: 7 million people live in France, 7 million in Iberia, 5 million in Italy, 4 million in Germany, 2 million in Britain
(http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/holy.html)

Will this increase in population be reflected in new population limits and "upgrade city"-thing?

[ScionTheWorm]

I think this might be finded helpful when completing the tech-tree (I haven't got time to read it now). The stuff is really focused on military:


Scots Irish (55 BC - 846 AD)

Norse Irish Army (846-1260 AD)
(Comment: should we base them on pre-viking invasion military style or post?)

The Magyars - (650-997 AD)


Feudal Spanish - (711-1350 AD)

[ScionTheWorm]

Viking migration could be pressumed by rebelstates in or in small groups from Norway.
This is my suggestion of the unique Irish units list:

• Light cavalry (very light armoured)
• Kerns
• Bonnachts
• Ostmen (viking settlers) (heavy infantry)
• Irish nobles armed with sword and javelins
• Irish nobles armed with axe and javelins

Mercenary units: Gael Gaedhil (young Celtic/Norse warriors)

[Ranika]

Kerns didn't exist yet as soldiers. They were just Irish peasant levies in the period, and not really that special (Kern meaning 'soldier' doesn't appear until the 11th century); Kerns in this period are just town militias and impromptu levies called up when a town was attacked. Bonnachts are 'billet men', and is a later word; more over, Bonnacht is a generic term for any professional soldier, not one specific type. Professional swordsmen, spearmen, and axemen are all bonnachta. They'd probably be Gaenaght or Daernaght in this period (Spearmen); spearmen who carry large heavy throwing spears, or a type of axemen with spears and a large heavy shield. In this period, they'd be pre-Viking invasion Irish, with only slight influences from the viking, and steadily more onto the end of the period (though most of the influences end up 'Gaelicized'). Also, Ostmen weren't trained, they were hired as mercenaries. Gaelic heavy infantry was generally nobility in chain or scale shirts, with iron helmets (and often wearing a crucifix on them, as the Gaelic 'nobility' was tied closely to the Irish Church), and using a large round shield of Gaelic make (not the thinner viking round shields, but the thicker targa style).

[ScionTheWorm]

Thanks, that to consideration I suggest:

• Light cavalry
• (Gaenaght?) Men throwing large javelins
• (Daernaght?) Axemen
• Irish nobles armed with sword (and javelins?)
• Irish nobles armed with axe (and javelins?)

Mercenaries: Ostmen, Gael Gaedhil

As I'm sure you understand I'm trying to get a discussion here.

[Ranika]

Gaenaght and Daernaght are both spearmen (Gaenaght are eastern and Munster spearmen, Daernaght were spearmen from Connaght). Axemen would be Traghnaght or Trainaght, or any mileu of other variants. The plurals for this period would involve an 'a' on the end (so, multiple Traghnaght is Traghnaghta). Both spear and axe men would use targes, and both would have darts or throwing spears, and both would have padded coats or leather (padded coats were more popular in Ireland, leather more in Scotland), with a leather cap.

On Irish and Scottish 'nobility'; Gaels don't really have 'nobles' perse, in this period, they had elected officials from an aristocracy; the aristocracy are 'arras'. While the arras do control a kind of 'noble house', they're generally just wealthy traders or skilled militarists, which sustain them financially. Anyone rich enough could become an arras. I'd drop one of the 'noble' units, probably have Gaelic Arras, with sword, javelins, chain, helmet, full length cloak, and targe, for both the Scots and Irish; they would make an appropriate 'generals' unit. They have retainers called Ridire by the Saxons, under them. Ridire would be both Scottish/Irish heavy infantry or cavalry. A sword, axe, cudgel/mace/hammer, or spear is fine for them (probably say axe or cudgel/mace/hammer, to differentiate from the Arras), with javelins, targe, and at the least, leather scale armor or padded armor, at most, plated scale {leather scale with iron or bronze on it} or heavy iron ring chainmaille (that is, wide, heavy rings, instead of the more effective, smaller rings). The Ridire would also have a shoulder cloak (at least, a full length cloak though is not impossible), and iron helmet (round, conical, no nose guard though).

Light cavalry were 'Guirran'. They carried javelins, with a spear (fought with overhand), a cudgel, or an axe.

All would have essentially the same clothing and general appearance. A knee-length shirt (sleeve length can vary), boots over the ankle, a shoulder cloak (if they don't have a different cloak already), a mustache or clean-shaved, maybe the occassional bearded unit (more popular among the Gaels in Scotland, who started imitating the Pict's beards). Really, Gaels don't look like other armies from the region at all. They don't wear trousers, they wear awkward cloaks, some still paint themselves (in western Ireland particularly, and a few isolated eastern Irish tribes). They're an entirely seperate culture in pretty much every way from those around them. Any generic units used with them would look awkward, if you were going for an authentic appearance, but I'm aware of time constraints and other limitations that likely go into what you can do (such as model limits). However, I do recommend sharing units between Scots and Irish where you can, at least, so you can use less generic units for them, and more actual Gaelic units. I know everyone says 'Well, X culture is unique in appearance from Y culture because of 800 minor things'. However, Gaels are hugely different in appearance, and army composition. They still used a lot of skirmishers (almost all soldiers carried javelins, darts, or heavy throwing spears), they didn't use many archers (usually Welsh mercenaries, or levied hunters), their militias (while I do say they aren't particularly special) were fairly well trained (had to be, maruading vikings in this period demanded it), and they used a lot of weapons and tactics others didn't in the region. They were isolated, and hadn't homogenized as much as others, who, through Roman and then Germanic influences, had developed very similar armies and clothing and so on, and Christianity, which generally absorbed cultures and helped homogenize them, was instead absorbed by the Gaels (hence the creation an insular, Celtic rite of the church), which also slowed any changes in their culture. While they'd begun to modernize at this time, it was at their own pace and in their own string of development, and they didn't use much of other cultures anyway, aside from weapons and armor. On a related note, the Ostmen would be dressed the same way (bare-legged, longshirt, boots), as Norse-Irish were far more heavily Gaelicized than Gaelic-Irish were Nordicized. Gaels main adoptions from the Norse was a reintroduction of widespread use of chain armor, a few types of axes, and a few types of swords. Norse-Irish converted to the Celtic rite of Christianity (generally), began to dress like Gaels, spoke a modified, Norse-influenced version of Irish, began to wear their hair like Gaels (long and in many tight braids, almost looking like dreadlocks from a distance), fought in a Gaelic version of the shield wall (axe/swordsmen, backed by longspearmen, backed by pikemen, flanked by skirmishers), etc.

[Bar Kochba]

what sort of units will khazar have

[skeletor]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?

what sort of units will khazar have

We haven't really finished the unit list for the khazars, but beside the basic unit's, they will get alot of good cav and cavarcers. Allso good foot archers i guess.
(See the techtree thread)

If you have alot of knowledge about their army, feel free to post any information you have.. Pic's too..

- I will make sure that they look uniqe, and spectakular

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

what sort of units will khazar have

Just like skeletor said. They also had good artillery according to the sources.

@ALL MOD TEAM MEMBERS: I've updated the Irish tree now. I'm not sure if everything is correct in the current tree but I've tried to incorporate the suggestions and facts mentioned in the discussion here as good as I could. Feel free to come with suggestions for improvements.

I created a new Scottish tree based on the Irish one, but I'm not sure that's correct. If the Irish is ok, can we proceed and discuss the Scottish tree now? Then I'd like to discuss the Welsh one. Can anyone find good sources for the Welsh? They should probably have more units with a combination of bows and meleé weapons.

BTW what does "targe" mean? I just copy-pasted it into the Irish tech tree from the descriptions above.

[King Ragnar]

About Welsh, they should be great ambushers and most of ther units should have a combination of melee bows as the most likely tactics would be to hit with arrows then charge in. I will start to look for information etc for the welsh.

[skeletor]

Great, could you allso see iif you could find some pic's of early longbows.

[King Ragnar]

Here is a pic of a longbow its the earliest i could get, to the person who wants to make the longbowmen, the bow should be the same length as the man (a normal longbow was about 5/6ft).

[Ranika]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?
-Skel-

In the period you've selected, the Scots conquer most of Scotland (not all). Actually, all they historically took in this period would be rebel. Comparatively, the Irish experienced a brief moment as a being a major power in northern Europe (as all of Ireland was united except for Leinster, and Ireland had a huge deal of resources and weight to pull around in the islands, and people were afraid of them after the victory at Clontarf); while the Scots are a more appropriate faction in later periods, in the late dark ages the Irish were a substantially more important group. The Scots conquered most of Scotland, and fought off the Angles, then got the shit kicked out of them by a lot of vikings, which they then barely managed to drive off. The Irish were one of the two main sides of Clontarf, and broke viking power in Ireland. If it weren't for Norman invasion in the 1100s, Ireland could've managed complete unity (as it was heading that direction, like England had). That's not speculation, it's simply what was happening at the time, and the examples before were identical. Comparatively, Scotland had its time as being a bunch of warring tribes, which had a defacto king who could exercise some control over them, but the Scots were having large clan wars, dealing with viking raiders, Pict rebellions, etc. They were heavily disunified by comparison. It wasn't until Norman England forced them to unify further did they really...unify. The southern Scots, though, became 'lowlanders', which imitated Normans to great extent (even clothing and such), and created the rift between 'highlanders' and 'lowlanders'; even then, Scotland wasn't really totally unified. The highlanders tended to ignore the lowlanders, because they didn't like the Norman feudal system (since it had heriditary instead of elected nobility, they saw it as tyranny). ...Just critiquing your selection.

Anyway, unit wise, a Scottish and Irish faction would look pretty much identical in this time period. They'd share all these units. I do recommend 2-3 Pict regional units, and they'd look completely different. Trousers, barechest/long sleeve shirt, belt, barefoot/tall boots, round shields, favored clubs and axes. I'd say, use like, Pict spearmen w/ javelins, bowmen, and maybe axemen; it'd give a fair cross section of Pictish soldiers, which were employed by the Scots. Remember, no highlanders (Scots didn't have that rift yet that made Scots in the highlands any different), maybe Regyddites/Stathclyders. Once again, I don't think Scots should look remotely like Saxons or Welsh. They were Gaels. Gaels had been isolated, they did not change like everyone else. They were comparatively unique to everyone around them, except for eachother.

[Rodion Romanovich]

The Irish will be rebels in the game

What? They're a playable faction...