Tech trees

[skeletor]

LoL, com'on guy's, let them have a taste of our good'ld Asiatic Ass throwers...

[Rodion Romanovich]

"native to the deserts of Syria, Iran, India, and Tibet. It is sometimes known as the Half Ass or the Asiatic Ass [etc.]"

I think it should have a combat bonus in deserts and zone of recruit "Syria, Iran, India and Tibet"...

[skeletor]

LOL, this is insane...

Have you seen how many Viking units there are?

javelinmen, bondi, militia bowmen, bowmen, militia archers, viking archers, birkebeiner archers, crossbowmen, spear militia, viking spearmen, geirrmen, militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry, raider cavalry, viking cavalry, danish knights, landsmenn, karls, gestr, viking huskarls, birkebeiners, jarl's hird, joms vikings, royal hird, ballista, mangonel.

Thats 25 unit's..

I'll say we cut:

bowmen + milita bowmen = bowmen (hunters)

bondi + spearmilitia = bondi

Royal hird + viking huskarls = viking huskarls

viking cavalry + raider cavalry + militia swordscavalry = raider cavalry
--------------

That leavs 20 unit's, more then most vanilla factions

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

but won't these be spread over four factions? if maybe 15 is shared, there is 3-4 uniques per faction.

[Incongruous]

Yeah, this is a disproportionate amount of units dudes.
Definatley need to revamp the list methinks.

[GoreBag]

25 units for four factions doesn't seem like too many to me.

[Incongruous]

No but most of those units are going to be shared by those factions.

[Ranika]

Maybe 25 units then for each of the 'cultures' then? Not the technical in game cultures, but things like 'Gaels' and 'Norse' and such, just to give an idea of where to put said units; considering there are a lot more homogenized, similar cultures in this mod than in vanilla Rome, so it'd be easier to share more unit models, so model space shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[skeletor]

Most of the unit's i have mentioned is lesser unit's for all factions. I fou see the techtree, all unit's, with ekcept birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight, are used for all factions. Rus is not mentioned, but with the scandinavian ones it's 75 unit's. With rus, it will be 100 unit's.
Legio have only specified birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight as zor or factionspecific unit's.

Allso the fact that vikings, who didn't use cavalery in battle have 5 difrent units is a bit silly. All their cavalery is supposed to be rather weak. So having 4 difrent types of poor cavalery is a bi too mutch. Having some very light spearcavalery, and then you get the bether viking cavalery (raider cavalery) .
Then the danes get their knights as the latest one.

Allso having a militia archer, then archer, thats two allmost identical unit's.
I'd say they can get the regular archer as the first base archer, then get vikingarchers, and at the en the crossbowmen + the birkebeiner in the zor system.

Bondis were usually spear militia, so thats the same as making 2 diffrent unit's of the same kind. I personally never use the Roman townwatch unit, unless i restrict myself from using peasants as garison in roman campaigns. So having only one "crappy on the battlefield, but good for garison" i'd say is enough.

Keaping all these unit's for all factions will probably mean AI large stack of militiaunit's, instead of apropriate viking armys.

Ofcourse, if alot of these unit's are for only one or some of the viking factions, its reasonable. But then i wold like to know witch..


Any other thoughts on this, or what do you think of my cutting?

-Skel-

[Krusader]

Muslims:

A muslim market is called medina

Muslims have madrasas which are Islamic schools. Some ideas for Abbasid & Al-Andalus tech trees.

[Devercia]

just some random ideas( i dont know if they are already here, as i am just passing by)


I like the idea of plenty of low level militia types, recrutable with little to no buildings

poachers: would replace the "militia archers" most people are refuring to. unskilled in archery, but can hide in grass. fast
"in exchange for pardon and licence to hunt, poachers are recruted to serve as ambushers and light archers"


peasant levies: like peasasnts but a little more combat effectiveness(just replace them with these)


I would like to see low base farming levels, and increased building time, lower exspence of farming buildings.(the saxons were known for crop rotation)

[Incongruous]

You should go look in our Minor Adjustments thread.

[Ranika]

An error of mine; Constantine of Scotland did use Pict levies with arcuballista. He sent many in support of an Irish ally; so, the Pict levies for Scotland should include Pict 'crossbows'; I updated my proposed unit list, which I'll just repost here, so you don't need to go back for it:

The crossbow (as the medieval weapon) was not used by the Picts. They did use a copy of the arcuballista, but it was poor quality, and the Scots didn't use it, but Pictish levies did. Highlanders don't emerge until about 1160 as a distinct group apart from lowlanders.

I'd recommend, then, only sharing units between the Irish and Scots; not allowing them to have other 'shared' units. They simply would look improper in a Gaelic army. If you're going to do the two factions, may as well do them right; you don't need use everything listed, but, these are my suggestions. A general Gaelic army would be composed of (this'll be followed with appropriate uniques for Scots and Irish), largely;

Gaelic units (Gaels organize in multiples of 5, along the line of 25-50-100-150-200; keep in mind for choosing numbers of men in a unit);
Kernbannal ('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts.

Soikernbannal ('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good; Scots would have some better Regyddite archers probably, will explain below) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except for mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Sleanaghta (Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Scots)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta (Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Claiomhnaghta (Mid-length swordsmen with javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. Faster than an axe, and generally more wieldy than a spear, it allows the soldier using it to manuever into position for thrusts and slashes. The typical Gaelic sword is shorter than a longsword, but not a shortsword. It generally has a leaf-shaped blade, meant to offer wide, sheering cuts, and devestating thrusts that open wide, gaping wounds. It is accompanied with a heavy Gaelic targe, and three light throwing spears; these spears are favored for swordsmen, so to enhance the mobility of these soldiers, but keep them able to fight in the traditional Gaelic manner.

Gaemornaghta (Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Guirran (Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Amguirran Ridire (Gaelic heavy cavalry with axes/swords, and lance, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, should be a bit late period) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On horseback, they form the Amguirran (heavy horsemen); Gaels don't tend to use much heavy cavalry, but when they do, they form a powerful reserve on the field for mowing down enemy infantry.

Clommhornaghta (Longswordsmen with javelins, large round shield, iron helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots), or scale armor) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. The longsword is a rare weapon among Gaels outside of aristocracy, but wars with vikings helped to popularize it. Wealthier soldiers may often binge and purchase a longsword, from viking traders, or commission one from a smith locally. Such warriors would be small in number, but relatively cheap semi-heavy infantry, since they'd provide most, if not all, of their own equipment.

Ridire (Gaelic heavy infantry with axes, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On foot, they form heavy infantry soldiers, with throwing spears, like most other Gaelic infantry, to disrupt an enemy line before charging. When defending, they use a tight formation, akin to a Norse shieldwall, to absorb charges.

Arras (Gaelic general unit, foot nobles with longswords, 'robes', long chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins) -
Description - Gaelic 'nobility' are drawn from numerous places; everyone from the lowest chief to the high king are considered Arras, as well as indepedent, wealthy merchants and traders. They can afford the best training, the best equipment, and the best soldiers to support them. Like other Gaels, they carry javelins to throw at their enemies before charging, and form a tight shieldwall-like formation to absorb an attack. They use long slashing and thrusting swords, often of Norse design, though Gaels also have their own styles of longsword. The heavy Gaelic targe, good quality chain armor, and a well-made iron helmet, provide them great protection against their enemies.

Scottish uniques;
Criosionaghta (Crossbowmen, late period unit, leather armor, an iron helmet, cudgel or mace in melee) -
Description - The crossbow changed the face of warfare in the kingdom of Alba. Scots took well to it, using it combat eachothers' tribes, as the bolt could pierce even the best chain armor. Arcuballistas had been used by pre-Gaelic Picts, but had never found much favor among Scots. They used the crossbow against both eachother and invaders; progessively more against invaders as they grew more stable and unified.

Picts (wear long-sleeve shirt, a heavy coat, trousers, boots, tattooed skin, bearded; all Picts hide in tall grass): -
Pictish Taghnaghta (Pict axemen, with a small round shield) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish axemen use a small round shield, and a small hand axe; they're not the most skilled, but cheap and plentiful shock troops.

Pictish Gaenaghta (Pict spearmen with javelins and a small round shield, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish skirmishers and spearmen were used as harassers and harriers, to weaken and slow down enemy forces. Similar troops made up the majority of Pictish rebels the Scots would eventually have to quell.

Pictish Fiagai (Pict huntsmen with a light crossbow {imitated arcuballista}) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish huntsmen were useful as missile troops and ambushers. Picts had used the arcuballista for centuries, after it was introduced by wars and trade with Romans.

Pictish Argull (Pict nobles with a sword, shield, robe, and leather armor, raise allied morale) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish nobles fought against the Scots, and beside them; they were fairly well equipped and brave.

Strathclyders/Regyddites (from southwest Scotland; they'd look like Gaels in this period):
Gaelo-British Ridire (Look like Ridire, but with a two-handed axe instead of axes/shields, shield strapped to back) -
Description - The Strathclyders and Regyddites were Britons, heavily influenced by Gaelic culture. Their best soldiers often use a heavy axe, in one or two-hands. This axe is often actually little more than a modified wood axe, though they'd later begin using bearded heads and similar other types of axes.

Regyddite Bognaghta ('Bowmen', Fair quality archers with knife in melee, in heavy cloaks; 'Bog' is a Norse word for bow that was adopted slightly later than your start period) -
Description - The Regyddites add substantial ranged power to the Scots compared to normal Gaelic archers. Regyddites have skilled archers, who wear heavy defensive cloaks, and carry long knives in melee. They can fire a fair distance with decent accuracy, and are accustomed to combat, so less likely to break.

Irish uniques;
Rastriagha (Irish berserkers, use an axe, cudgel, or hammer, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix (they were fanatics of different saint cults, and also generally trained soldiers), no armor) -
Description - The Irish have their own berserker tradition, stemming from pagan times, but adapted well into the Christian era. The Irish are generally very fervent people; the most fervent soldiers tend to belong to saint cults, such as the cult of St. Finbar. Their devotion to their people and the Church keeps them constantly training. Many even join monastaries and are actually monks or priests. In battle, they enter a kind of religious-inspired frenzy, and kill anyone they see as a threat to Ireland or Christianity.

Inishnaghta (Irish islanders from the satellite islands of Ireland, with heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe (two blades), heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin) -
Description - The islanders of Ireland live among the many sattelite islands. They fight with a version of the Gaelic axe, with two blades, and carry heavy throwing spears. They still paint their skin, and are some of the bravest soldiers in Ireland, though they wear no armor, but a helmet, and instead use a heavy cloak as defense.

Maiobhanaghta (Irish slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Irish. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic Irish often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.

Caeisornaghta (Irish macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace}, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for century, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head. They are another arm of Irish infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Dinuadda-Claiomhnaghta (Irish longswordsmen; using longsword in two-hands though (not a greatsword), padded armor, iron helmet, available in southern Ireland) -
Description - Southern Irish longswords sometimes accomodated longer grips, meant to be used in two hands. Longswords were somewhat rare in Ireland to begin with, and these particular weapons rarely proliferated far, but they were a favored weapon of numerous champions and wealthier soldiers, as they could be used in one or two hands. In two hands, they would be able to deal more damage.

Carpata - Gaelic chariot; chariot models don't count (they are counted with siege engines), but it'd probably need a new model for the driver. Would probably look similar to a British Wetwang chariot in shape, but less decoration than you see on reconstructions; riders would be Sleanaghta or similar infantry, maybe even just use them, in which case no new model would be needed at all; would raise allied morale
Description - The Gaels still used chariots in this period. They were in rapid decline in use, and had rarely been much of a weapon for war outside of a few regions, where the ground was smooth and flat enough to make good use of them, but they were still a popularized possession, and it was rare for aristocrats to not own at least one chariot for formal events. In war, they were used to drop nobles off into the middle of the fight (which can't be replicated in game), and as a missile platform from which the riders would hurl javelins, and also to crush light infantry by riding over them with the chariot's substantial weight.

Mercenaries in Scotland and Ireland;
Ostmen (Ireland and southwest Scotland only; Gaelicized Norsemen; dressed like Gaels, but with a Norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather or chain armor, round metal helmet, trews)
Cymri Dynne (All of Britain and eastern Ireland; mercenary Welsh archers)
Gael Gaedhilbuanna (No province should start with these in them, but they should generate slowly; Gaelic-Norse raiders, available in eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland)
Gaelbuanna (Gaelic mercenaries in all of Britain, can be a number of mercenaries, really; just use the 'basic' units as mercs; names are easy, instead of 'naghta', the name ends in 'buanna' {'mercenaries'})


I'm aware you probably won't do all or most of that, but it's what I'd recommend for accurate Gaels (and keeps them from looking at all like Saxons or Welsh, since they didn't at all look like them).

[The Stranger]

thanx

[Meneldil]

Here's the Franksih army list I posted for Fury of the Northmen MTW mod. I thought it could be helpful :

Comes: Comes were part of the higher Frankish nobility, they were the king’s most important vassals. What distinguished them from the other members of the nobility was that they had their own vassals, loyal to them personally. When a Comes was granted land by the King, his part of the deal was that he would bring a certain number of knights to the battlefield when summoned. They were often used as the king’s elite bodyguards, or were asked to lead batailles (battlefield divisions) during important battles.

Units of 15 men
Armed with spears
Armoured
Irresistible charge
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders

Milites: Milites are the backbones of Frankish armies. They are fearsome warriors, and as cavalrymen, their skills are only matched by the Katraphraktoi and by the Normans knights.
Like many other knights, their arrogance might sometimes be a problem, and might aswell lead them in dangerous situations.

Unit of 40 men
Elite unit
Armed with spears
Armoured
Large shield
Irresistible charge
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders
May dismount before battle

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19258

Milites pedites: While they mostly fight as heavy cavalry, Milites are sometimes dismounted and used as heavy infantry. Though they may not be as effective as mounted Milites, they are a very effective heavy infantry. Protected by heavy armours and large shields, and armed with swords and axes, they are probably the best infantry a Frankish king could lead to the battle.

Unit of 40 men
Bonus vs. armoured troops
Elite unit
Armoured
Large shield
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders
Slow

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19257

Pueri: Pueri are light cavalry, mostly used to scout out the enemy positions and troop strengths, as well as to take care of skirmishers and light infantry. Unlike milites, pueri aren’t part of the high nobility, but rather poor knights or squires.

Unit of 40 men
Powerful charge
Armed with throwing spears
Missiles effective against armour
Fast

Liberi: Liberi are lesser warriors. Though they can stand a fight against more professional warriors, they are mainly used to make the number, and to support the heavy Frankish cavalry during long fights (which was unlikely to happen, since the Milites’ charge was often enough to break the enemy). Liberi usually use spears and shields or bows.

Liberi (spearmen):
Unit of 100 men
Powerful charge
Armed with spears
Large shield
Weak attack
Weak defence
Effective against cavalry
Can fight on 2 ranks

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19256

Liberi (archers):
Unit of 66 men
Good attack
Weak defence
Poor moral

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19255

Coloni: Coloni are nothing else than quickly-trained peasants. They are not really good at fighting, but they can form a cheap and useful militia in times of need.

Same thing as peasants from MTW

Here are some Normans, Britons and Flemish special units:

Norman Milites: Norman knights are probably the finest cavalry of the era. They learnt how to use lance when fighting as mercenaries for the Byzantines, but unlike Byzantine cavalry who used to charge at a brisk trot, Normans usually enter the fight at the highest speed possible, wreaking havoc in their enemy’s ranks, which usually lead to a quick victory.

Unit of 40 men
Armed with spears
Irresistible charge
High moral
Elite unit
Large shield
Heavily armoured
Impetuous
May charge without orders

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19259

PS: The use of the cavalry lance + high speed charge was probably not used before the mid/late 10th century, so I don’t know if they should have the irresistible charge. It’s up to you, though I think it would make Norman knights a nice unit.

Norman infantry (I have no idea if this unit is totally correct, but I know that while Franks were sometimes warring with cavalry armies only, Normans were rather using both infantry and cavalry, so I think it might be a good idea): Unlike franks who were mostly relying on their heavy cavalry and on their archers, Normans used both infantry and cavalry to win battles. Norman, having blood from both Vikings and franks, can form a superb infantry, a good combination of Frankish warfare and Vikings warlike.

Unit of 100 men
Armoured
Strong charge
High moral
Elite unit
Large shield
Impetuous
May charge without orders
Bonus vs. armoured troops

Devroet: Devroet means literally Breton exile. Whereas Brittany wasn’t actually a part of the Frankish empire, Britons were often used in both Normans and Frankish armies. They are famous for their horsemanship and are used as an effective medium cavalry, used to support heavier cavalry or infantry, or to rout enemy skirmishers or light infantry.

Unit of 40 men
Armed with spears and javelins
Very strong charge
Missiles effective vs. armoured troops
Good moral

Flemish spearmen: The county of Flanders is nominally a part of the Western Frank Empire. In fact, the county was often warring against the French king, and quickly became a semi-independent province. To protect Flanders from attacks from both Normans and Frankish armies, Flemish lords had to train professional warriors, which could defend themselves against the heavy cavalry they often had to fight. Those warriors were also often hired as mercenaries in west Europe.

Unit of 100 men
Armed with spears
Large shields
Very effective against cavalry
Powerful charge
Good moral
Good defence

Stipendarii: Mercenary knights are often recruited from all over north-west Europe, as well as Spain and Italy. Stipendarii is the name of those mercenary groups, often composed of fallen knights, fighting sometimes for glory, and often for money. These skilled warriors spend their time fighting for wealthy lords and kings and are a good and reliable cavalry, as well as an effective medium infantry.

Mounted stipendarii:
Unit of 60 men
Armed with spears
Fast
Powerful charge
Bonus versus armoured troop
Poor moral

Stipendarii pedites:
Unit of 60 men
Good attack
Bonus versus armoured troops
Poor moral

A pic that could be used for Stipendarii, though it's supposed to be a spanish mercenary knight from the XIIIth century :
http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19463

Italian crossbowmen: Italian crossbowmen are considered as the best long range infantry a Christian lord could hire. Crossbow is a fearsome weapon that can easily kill a man in a single shot, and unlike long and composite bows, it can be used effectively after a few days of training. One thing is certain; mercenaries from Italia are famous for their use of the crossbow.

Unit of 60 men
Good attack
Long range
Weak defence
Slow rate of fire
Slow
Bonus vs. armoured troop
Poor moral

[Archbaker]

I'm a stickler.

In Scandinavian languages, they are called ridder (i think thats why their refered to as viking raider in English) or knekt (but that name is probably adopted from the word knight)

I'm fairly certain it's the other way around. Knekt means boy or man as in "my men will kill you" and is the same word used in Landesknechte much later, as far as I can tell the English adopted it at some point to refer to professional soldiers and later narrowed it further to include only noble warriors.
Ridder means someone who rides and at some point becomes a noble title.
Skinkerytter means fearsome champion of the rainbow flag with lightning eyes.

[GoreBag]

Knekt, as in German "knecht", would just mean any knight, but more specifically, a knave, which was a rank of knight, but also has a connotation of "manservant".

[Archbaker]

I just wanted to set the semantics straight. Although, come to think of it, the Saxon version of the modern word knight could be quite close to knekt for all I know (I know there are more knowledgeable people here) and then it gets hard to tell who used the word first.

[Archbaker]

And by semantics I mean etymology. I couldn't find an edit button. Sorry.