Tech trees

[ScionTheWorm]

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass

[ScionTheWorm]

"Known for their fierce and deadly weapon of crap, armies of the half-asses were feared by great generals and kings troughout the whole known world of medievel times"

[Rodion Romanovich]

Talk about ass-kicking :)

[ScionTheWorm]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099

2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?

3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity

[Rodion Romanovich]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099

First crossbows arrived around 800 AD in France I think. The HRE introduced them a lot later. Genua is located in Lotharingia and therefore they'd also, if they hadn't stopped existing before 900 AD or so, have had easy access to good crossbows early.

2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?

They'll have pretty similar tech trees. After all, 843 AD was when they were split up, from being the same empire before. But there will perhaps be some more unique units, I haven't found much yet.

Lotharingia is northern Italy as well as some regions between Germany and France - Friesia and Lorraine etc. The Kingdom of Lotharingia lost the northern provinces pretty quickly though.

3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity

Not yet, but you can ask me about those you don't know. I could make a map of it as soon as I get info on what the primary faction colors of all factions will be, and when I know which the provinces will be. Actually this isn't the first time I've needed those colors and the provinces, so I'll try to speed up the process of fixing those things.

[The Stranger]

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass

well we could use the Age of Chivalry's models for crossbows.

[ScionTheWorm]

I found this on crossbows.

*341 BCE --- Earliest reliable record of the use of the crossbow at the battle of Ma-ling in China.
*228 BCE --- Earliest factual evidence in the form of a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.
*1 st. cent. CE --- Heron records a form of hand balllista.
*4 th.-7 th. cents. CE --- Roman evidence from carvings and remains
*385 CE --- F. Vegetius Renatus in De Re Militari refers to crossbows
*947 CE --- Attack on Senlis driven off by crossbowmen.
*985 CE --- Crossbowmen in Lothair's expedition against Verdun.
*986 CE --- 'Lock bows' used in the battle of Hjorungsvag.
*ca. 1000 CE --- The crossbow comes into wide use.
*11 th. century CE --- Tiller is grooved to hold bolt (Wilkinson-Latham, p. 170)
*1066 CE --- Crossbows reintroduced into England by the Normans.
*1096 CE --- Anna Comnena records the use of crossbows in that year by the Normans.

[ScionTheWorm]

Trying to find out who should have knights and who should not...
Ok found this on knights

"In an effort to stem the tide of Viking raids, King Charles of France, gave land to a group of them in 911. This land was called Normandy, and a man named Rollo, became their first duke. While other Vikings preferred to fight on foot, these Norman's followed the fashion of the French and became formidable horsemen. When King Edward the Confessor of England died in 1066, his cousin, Duke William of Normandy, claimed he had been promised the throne. He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England. At this time the English still fought on foot and it was the horseman's advantage that helped William the Conqueror win England for himself. Signals on the battlefield were announced by horn."

(source: http://www.getmedievalonline.com/knights.html)

France has knights, but Normandy is not a faction yet at startdate? seems like it's 911 here

He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England.

I guess this means factions in England won't have knights before Normandy or someone else invade them?

[ScionTheWorm]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

[Rodion Romanovich]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

Yes, I said I'd PROBABLY remove it for all factions. On second thoughts, I'll CERTAINLY remove it for all factions now

[Jarlabanke]

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

Maps

As far as I know Heavy cavalary wasn't employed by the english before the conquest.

[Ranika]

Some other mercenaries or soldiers to consider;

Mercenaries/Regionals;

Æxberendan - 'Axe-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary axemen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æxberendan were also just any soldier carrying a axe. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany

Æscberendan - 'Spear-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary spearmen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æscberendan were also just any soldier carrying a spear. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany


Some types of Frankish/Germanic soldiers, perhaps of some use, though the names may be a bit dated, but possibly for Lotharingia?;

Woígan or Wígan - Frankish 'Warriors', spear specifically would be æscwoígan, acswoígan/æxwoígan would be axemen, bægwígan would be archers, etc. Warriors were non-professional soldiers.

Milæscan - Frankish regular spearmen; I think from the Germanic 'æsc' (spear), and Latin 'miles' (soldiers)

Milæxan - Frankish regular axemen


Some Welsh units;

Alltbadwyr - Actually only noted (to my knowledge) at a single battle (Dun Finwain), they were horse archers, probably an outgrowth of Sarmatian auxiliaries brought in the Roman period. They engaged an invading force of the Des Coillai, and were only driven off by slingmen, who could outrange them.

Alltwigwylln - 'Hill Men', generally drawn from more isolated tribes, Garret of Tygan describes them fighting in support of an allied Irish army in Cumbria; "They carry clubs banded in iron and great shields, and some fight naked to the waist, but some wear leather shirts, but they all wear white cloaks and carry 'gae'"; 'gae' is ambigous here, hence my not translating it. Gae could be a spear, or darts, or a javelin.

Gwoidyll Ayfwr - In western Wales, there was a substantial Gaelic population and sub-culture; this was a by-product of the west of Wales once belong to the Des Mumai of Ireland, and their large colonization projects. In this period, the Gaels remained, and some of their local nobles were employed as a compliment to Welsh armies. Probably just as spearmen, or some other form of light infantry or skirmishers.


I should note that much of this from memory, and my knowledge of Germanic languages is poor, at best. The mercenary names are from Scottish rolls (so, imitating the Saxon language, it may be inaccurate), and the Frankish stuff is from actual Frankish writing, but the names may be out of date; more Latin worked into the language over time and worked out much of the German.

[GoreBag]

Interesting that aex would ba an axe, but aesc would be a spear. Such a slight different.

I remember reading that the typically white trash version of "ask", "aks", is actually correct by Saxon standards, because there were two forms of the same verb in use at a certain period - "Ascen" and "acsen". "Ascen" eventually proved to be more popular, hence why it's the proper form of the word in English, but there is really no difference in meaning between the two.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[Ranika]

How many units are intended for a faction? Though I'm sure more homogenized types of factions could share more, but planning number and model allocation should be kept in mind to ensure there is all the model space you'll need.

[ScionTheWorm]

agree, but it don't seem like it's going to be a problem with 500 max... but when we get the unitlist finished we have to get some system of the models; which shall use the same model etc

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.

[ScionTheWorm]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...?

Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.

I agree. Should have some strong cavalry though after a while...

[Rodion Romanovich]

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...?

The level 4 units will hardly ever appear on the battlefields, and especially not for factions with starting positions such as those of the saxons, with so small cities etc. The mod will almost reach 1050 before they can appear, so I think it's accurate.

The unit called saxon knights is a medium cavalry unit of slightly lower quality and is supposed to reflect the best cavalry the saxons had before the norman conquest. The unit called saxon sergeant is a kind of cavalry to reflect the more common medium to low quality cavalry (no army ever has elite only, these are "the rest") the saxons had before the norman conquest.