Tech trees

[Ranika]

Gaenaght and Daernaght are both spearmen (Gaenaght are eastern and Munster spearmen, Daernaght were spearmen from Connaght). Axemen would be Traghnaght or Trainaght, or any mileu of other variants. The plurals for this period would involve an 'a' on the end (so, multiple Traghnaght is Traghnaghta). Both spear and axe men would use targes, and both would have darts or throwing spears, and both would have padded coats or leather (padded coats were more popular in Ireland, leather more in Scotland), with a leather cap.

On Irish and Scottish 'nobility'; Gaels don't really have 'nobles' perse, in this period, they had elected officials from an aristocracy; the aristocracy are 'arras'. While the arras do control a kind of 'noble house', they're generally just wealthy traders or skilled militarists, which sustain them financially. Anyone rich enough could become an arras. I'd drop one of the 'noble' units, probably have Gaelic Arras, with sword, javelins, chain, helmet, full length cloak, and targe, for both the Scots and Irish; they would make an appropriate 'generals' unit. They have retainers called Ridire by the Saxons, under them. Ridire would be both Scottish/Irish heavy infantry or cavalry. A sword, axe, cudgel/mace/hammer, or spear is fine for them (probably say axe or cudgel/mace/hammer, to differentiate from the Arras), with javelins, targe, and at the least, leather scale armor or padded armor, at most, plated scale {leather scale with iron or bronze on it} or heavy iron ring chainmaille (that is, wide, heavy rings, instead of the more effective, smaller rings). The Ridire would also have a shoulder cloak (at least, a full length cloak though is not impossible), and iron helmet (round, conical, no nose guard though).

Light cavalry were 'Guirran'. They carried javelins, with a spear (fought with overhand), a cudgel, or an axe.

All would have essentially the same clothing and general appearance. A knee-length shirt (sleeve length can vary), boots over the ankle, a shoulder cloak (if they don't have a different cloak already), a mustache or clean-shaved, maybe the occassional bearded unit (more popular among the Gaels in Scotland, who started imitating the Pict's beards). Really, Gaels don't look like other armies from the region at all. They don't wear trousers, they wear awkward cloaks, some still paint themselves (in western Ireland particularly, and a few isolated eastern Irish tribes). They're an entirely seperate culture in pretty much every way from those around them. Any generic units used with them would look awkward, if you were going for an authentic appearance, but I'm aware of time constraints and other limitations that likely go into what you can do (such as model limits). However, I do recommend sharing units between Scots and Irish where you can, at least, so you can use less generic units for them, and more actual Gaelic units. I know everyone says 'Well, X culture is unique in appearance from Y culture because of 800 minor things'. However, Gaels are hugely different in appearance, and army composition. They still used a lot of skirmishers (almost all soldiers carried javelins, darts, or heavy throwing spears), they didn't use many archers (usually Welsh mercenaries, or levied hunters), their militias (while I do say they aren't particularly special) were fairly well trained (had to be, maruading vikings in this period demanded it), and they used a lot of weapons and tactics others didn't in the region. They were isolated, and hadn't homogenized as much as others, who, through Roman and then Germanic influences, had developed very similar armies and clothing and so on, and Christianity, which generally absorbed cultures and helped homogenize them, was instead absorbed by the Gaels (hence the creation an insular, Celtic rite of the church), which also slowed any changes in their culture. While they'd begun to modernize at this time, it was at their own pace and in their own string of development, and they didn't use much of other cultures anyway, aside from weapons and armor. On a related note, the Ostmen would be dressed the same way (bare-legged, longshirt, boots), as Norse-Irish were far more heavily Gaelicized than Gaelic-Irish were Nordicized. Gaels main adoptions from the Norse was a reintroduction of widespread use of chain armor, a few types of axes, and a few types of swords. Norse-Irish converted to the Celtic rite of Christianity (generally), began to dress like Gaels, spoke a modified, Norse-influenced version of Irish, began to wear their hair like Gaels (long and in many tight braids, almost looking like dreadlocks from a distance), fought in a Gaelic version of the shield wall (axe/swordsmen, backed by longspearmen, backed by pikemen, flanked by skirmishers), etc.

[Bar Kochba]

what sort of units will khazar have

[skeletor]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?

what sort of units will khazar have

We haven't really finished the unit list for the khazars, but beside the basic unit's, they will get alot of good cav and cavarcers. Allso good foot archers i guess.
(See the techtree thread)

If you have alot of knowledge about their army, feel free to post any information you have.. Pic's too..

- I will make sure that they look uniqe, and spectakular

-Skel-

[Ranika]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?
-Skel-

In the period you've selected, the Scots conquer most of Scotland (not all). Actually, all they historically took in this period would be rebel. Comparatively, the Irish experienced a brief moment as a being a major power in northern Europe (as all of Ireland was united except for Leinster, and Ireland had a huge deal of resources and weight to pull around in the islands, and people were afraid of them after the victory at Clontarf); while the Scots are a more appropriate faction in later periods, in the late dark ages the Irish were a substantially more important group. The Scots conquered most of Scotland, and fought off the Angles, then got the shit kicked out of them by a lot of vikings, which they then barely managed to drive off. The Irish were one of the two main sides of Clontarf, and broke viking power in Ireland. If it weren't for Norman invasion in the 1100s, Ireland could've managed complete unity (as it was heading that direction, like England had). That's not speculation, it's simply what was happening at the time, and the examples before were identical. Comparatively, Scotland had its time as being a bunch of warring tribes, which had a defacto king who could exercise some control over them, but the Scots were having large clan wars, dealing with viking raiders, Pict rebellions, etc. They were heavily disunified by comparison. It wasn't until Norman England forced them to unify further did they really...unify. The southern Scots, though, became 'lowlanders', which imitated Normans to great extent (even clothing and such), and created the rift between 'highlanders' and 'lowlanders'; even then, Scotland wasn't really totally unified. The highlanders tended to ignore the lowlanders, because they didn't like the Norman feudal system (since it had heriditary instead of elected nobility, they saw it as tyranny). ...Just critiquing your selection.

Anyway, unit wise, a Scottish and Irish faction would look pretty much identical in this time period. They'd share all these units. I do recommend 2-3 Pict regional units, and they'd look completely different. Trousers, barechest/long sleeve shirt, belt, barefoot/tall boots, round shields, favored clubs and axes. I'd say, use like, Pict spearmen w/ javelins, bowmen, and maybe axemen; it'd give a fair cross section of Pictish soldiers, which were employed by the Scots. Remember, no highlanders (Scots didn't have that rift yet that made Scots in the highlands any different), maybe Regyddites/Stathclyders. Once again, I don't think Scots should look remotely like Saxons or Welsh. They were Gaels. Gaels had been isolated, they did not change like everyone else. They were comparatively unique to everyone around them, except for eachother.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Ranika: Do you know which pict units the scots employed most? Any suggestions on which units we should have? Also, shouldn't the Scots have better missile troops than the Irish? I've listed some Irish spear units with zone of recruit, what are the Scottish replacements/equivalents to them? Also, weren't the picts fond of crossbows and employed them early? Did the scots take over the crossbow when the Kingdom of Alba united scots and picts, or did they forget the crossbow for a few centuries before reintroducing it? Finally, the mod ends in 1099 AD, so the level 4 units can be troops that existed near the end of the period. Or were the highlanders introduced so much later than 1099 AD that they should be removed alltogether (remember that the level 4 units won't appear much at all until the end of the game)?

[Rodion Romanovich]

The Irish will be rebels in the game

What? They're a playable faction...

[skeletor]

What? They're a playable faction...

lol, i've completely missed them.. Probably had the NTW list in my head.. Thnx for enlightening me

Anyway, great stuff Ranika, Scion will make the longbow's come alive..

Wold the Irish harp work for the Irish, or should we find a more ancient symbol for them?


-Skel-

[Ranika]

The crossbow (as the medieval weapon) was not used by the Picts. They did use a copy of the arcuballista, but it was poor quality, and the Scots didn't use it, but Pictish levies did. Highlanders don't emerge until about 1160 as a distinct group apart from lowlanders.

I'd recommend, then, only sharing units between the Irish and Scots; not allowing them to have other 'shared' units. They simply would look improper in a Gaelic army. If you're going to do the two factions, may as well do them right; you don't need use everything listed, but, these are my suggestions. A general Gaelic army would be composed of (this'll be followed with appropriate uniques for Scots and Irish), largely;

Gaelic units (Gaels organize in multiples of 5, along the line of 25-50-100-150-200; keep in mind for choosing numbers of men in a unit);
Kernbannal ('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts.

Soikernbannal ('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good; Scots would have some better Regyddite archers probably, will explain below) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except for mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Sleanaghta (Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Scots)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta (Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Claiomhnaghta (Mid-length swordsmen with javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. Faster than an axe, and generally more wieldy than a spear, it allows the soldier using it to manuever into position for thrusts and slashes. The typical Gaelic sword is shorter than a longsword, but not a shortsword. It generally has a leaf-shaped blade, meant to offer wide, sheering cuts, and devestating thrusts that open wide, gaping wounds. It is accompanied with a heavy Gaelic targe, and three light throwing spears; these spears are favored for swordsmen, so to enhance the mobility of these soldiers, but keep them able to fight in the traditional Gaelic manner.

Gaemornaghta (Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Guirran (Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Amguirran Ridire (Gaelic heavy cavalry with axes/swords, and lance, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, should be a bit late period) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On horseback, they form the Amguirran (heavy horsemen); Gaels don't tend to use much heavy cavalry, but when they do, they form a powerful reserve on the field for mowing down enemy infantry.

Clommhornaghta (Longswordsmen with javelins, large round shield, iron helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots), or scale armor) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. The longsword is a rare weapon among Gaels outside of aristocracy, but wars with vikings helped to popularize it. Wealthier soldiers may often binge and purchase a longsword, from viking traders, or commission one from a smith locally. Such warriors would be small in number, but relatively cheap semi-heavy infantry, since they'd provide most, if not all, of their own equipment.

Ridire (Gaelic heavy infantry with axes, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On foot, they form heavy infantry soldiers, with throwing spears, like most other Gaelic infantry, to disrupt an enemy line before charging. When defending, they use a tight formation, akin to a Norse shieldwall, to absorb charges.

Arras (Gaelic general unit, foot nobles with longswords, 'robes', long chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins) -
Description - Gaelic 'nobility' are drawn from numerous places; everyone from the lowest chief to the high king are considered Arras, as well as indepedent, wealthy merchants and traders. They can afford the best training, the best equipment, and the best soldiers to support them. Like other Gaels, they carry javelins to throw at their enemies before charging, and form a tight shieldwall-like formation to absorb an attack. They use long slashing and thrusting swords, often of Norse design, though Gaels also have their own styles of longsword. The heavy Gaelic targe, good quality chain armor, and a well-made iron helmet, provide them great protection against their enemies.

Scottish uniques;
Criosionaghta (Crossbowmen, late period unit, leather armor, an iron helmet, cudgel or mace in melee) -
Description - The crossbow changed the face of warfare in the kingdom of Alba. Scots took well to it, using it combat eachothers' tribes, as the bolt could pierce even the best chain armor. Arcuballistas had been used by pre-Gaelic Picts, but had never found much favor among Scots. They used the crossbow against both eachother and invaders; progessively more against invaders as they grew more stable and unified.

Picts (wear long-sleeve shirt, a heavy coat, trousers, boots, tattooed skin, bearded; all Picts hide in tall grass): -
Pictish Taghnaghta (Pict axemen, with a small round shield) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish axemen use a small round shield, and a small hand axe; they're not the most skilled, but cheap and plentiful shock troops.

Pictish Gaenaghta (Pict spearmen with javelins and a small round shield, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish skirmishers and spearmen were used as harassers and harriers, to weaken and slow down enemy forces. Similar troops made up the majority of Pictish rebels the Scots would eventually have to quell.

Pictish Fiagai (Pict huntsmen with a light crossbow {imitated arcuballista}) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish huntsmen were useful as missile troops and ambushers. Picts had used the arcuballista for centuries, after it was introduced by wars and trade with Romans.

Pictish Argull (Pict nobles with a sword, shield, robe, and leather armor, raise allied morale) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish nobles fought against the Scots, and beside them; they were fairly well equipped and brave.

Strathclyders/Regyddites (from southwest Scotland; they'd look like Gaels in this period):
Gaelo-British Ridire (Look like Ridire, but with a two-handed axe instead of axes/shields, shield strapped to back) -
Description - The Strathclyders and Regyddites were Britons, heavily influenced by Gaelic culture. Their best soldiers often use a heavy axe, in one or two-hands. This axe is often actually little more than a modified wood axe, though they'd later begin using bearded heads and similar other types of axes.

Regyddite Bognaghta ('Bowmen', Fair quality archers with knife in melee, in heavy cloaks; 'Bog' is a Norse word for bow that was adopted slightly later than your start period) -
Description - The Regyddites add substantial ranged power to the Scots compared to normal Gaelic archers. Regyddites have skilled archers, who wear heavy defensive cloaks, and carry long knives in melee. They can fire a fair distance with decent accuracy, and are accustomed to combat, so less likely to break.

Irish uniques;
Rastriagha (Irish berserkers, use an axe, cudgel, or hammer, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix (they were fanatics of different saint cults, and also generally trained soldiers), no armor) -
Description - The Irish have their own berserker tradition, stemming from pagan times, but adapted well into the Christian era. The Irish are generally very fervent people; the most fervent soldiers tend to belong to saint cults, such as the cult of St. Finbar. Their devotion to their people and the Church keeps them constantly training. Many even join monastaries and are actually monks or priests. In battle, they enter a kind of religious-inspired frenzy, and kill anyone they see as a threat to Ireland or Christianity.

Inishnaghta (Irish islanders from the satellite islands of Ireland, with heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe (two blades), heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin) -
Description - The islanders of Ireland live among the many sattelite islands. They fight with a version of the Gaelic axe, with two blades, and carry heavy throwing spears. They still paint their skin, and are some of the bravest soldiers in Ireland, though they wear no armor, but a helmet, and instead use a heavy cloak as defense.

Maiobhanaghta (Irish slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Irish. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic Irish often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.

Caeisornaghta (Irish macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace}, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for century, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head. They are another arm of Irish infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Dinuadda-Claiomhnaghta (Irish longswordsmen; using longsword in two-hands though (not a greatsword), padded armor, iron helmet, available in southern Ireland) -
Description - Southern Irish longswords sometimes accomodated longer grips, meant to be used in two hands. Longswords were somewhat rare in Ireland to begin with, and these particular weapons rarely proliferated far, but they were a favored weapon of numerous champions and wealthier soldiers, as they could be used in one or two hands. In two hands, they would be able to deal more damage.

Carpata - Gaelic chariot; chariot models don't count (they are counted with siege engines), but it'd probably need a new model for the driver. Would probably look similar to a British Wetwang chariot in shape, but less decoration than you see on reconstructions; riders would be Sleanaghta or similar infantry, maybe even just use them, in which case no new model would be needed at all; would raise allied morale
Description - The Gaels still used chariots in this period. They were in rapid decline in use, and had rarely been much of a weapon for war outside of a few regions, where the ground was smooth and flat enough to make good use of them, but they were still a popularized possession, and it was rare for aristocrats to not own at least one chariot for formal events. In war, they were used to drop nobles off into the middle of the fight (which can't be replicated in game), and as a missile platform from which the riders would hurl javelins, and also to crush light infantry by riding over them with the chariot's substantial weight.

Mercenaries in Scotland and Ireland;
Ostmen (Ireland and southwest Scotland only; Gaelicized Norsemen; dressed like Gaels, but with a Norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather or chain armor, round metal helmet, trews)
Cymri Dynne (All of Britain and eastern Ireland; mercenary Welsh archers)
Gael Gaedhilbuanna (No province should start with these in them, but they should generate slowly; Gaelic-Norse raiders, available in eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland)
Gaelbuanna (Gaelic mercenaries in all of Britain, can be a number of mercenaries, really; just use the 'basic' units as mercs; names are easy, instead of 'naghta', the name ends in 'buanna' {'mercenaries'})


I'm aware you probably won't do all or most of that, but it's what I'd recommend for accurate Gaels (and keeps them from looking at all like Saxons or Welsh, since they didn't at all look like them).

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks Ranika, I think we could use a lot of them, thank god we havn't begun on these factions.

Legio: I think this is important information when setting up the tech tree (excluding and including units). It seems like one faction cannot have two units using the same model. Max number of models is 255, so shared units is a blessing. For instance, a spearman that on modelbasis can be shared between more nations (mainly helmets and weapons are important here) is very positive, while multiple units within the same faction that is almost alike is not. As a consequence, unique units that requires an unique model occupies 1 of this number 255 - while for instance a peasantmodel used by 6 nations only occupies one too (of course the max 500 units number should also be taken into consideration, but this number is quite high. Don't believe we will have that many units in this first release).

Of course we need a lot of unique models, but you should know about it anyway. In a version 2 we can then easely include a houndred or more units if wanted. The number 255 isn't that high when you think about horses, mercenaries ++

[Ranika]

All the mercenaries I listed should probably be able to use other unit models, and won't need unique ones. The Gaels would both share all of eachothers models, and horses shouldn't take too many model spaces over all. Really, that was a problem with EB. We plotted out units before realizing model limitations. Before doing a lot of work, you should plot all of your unit lists, and model usage. It'll save a ton of time and grief. Remember to also plot 2 models for each faction for the family generals and the lesser generals (though, again, Scots and Irish can use the same models there).

[Incongruous]

Magyar units should be:
Cavalry.
Magyer Tribesmen (rather like the Scythian nobles) and Kabars (exactly the same as Khazar horse archers)
to
Arpad Aristocracy(stronger and more decorative version of Magyer) and Székely (Rugged Hunnic peoples, semi-civilised looking, amazing firepower greater than the longbow) and Avars (Mailed horse archers, almost as powerful as the Székely )
to
Now nearly a century after the battle of Letchfield some Latin author described mailed cavalry carrying a lance and a bow called "Hungarus" which quite simply means in english Hungarian. I'll try to find a better name but these guys are Christianised Magyars prodominently.
There would also be Transylvanian Knights (these are the christianised Székely) these guys are nutters, I have read stories about these guys causing Turks to flee the field just by beeing there. They will have Scail/mail armour, very very high morale and high attack but they were only ever banded into small groups, say maybe only 40-50 men per unit, they should have reddish armour and facings.
Then there would be also be knights from the city of Bhuda, a very westernised city, so they would be rather like Frankish knights.

Thats all I have time for hope its helpfull.

[Rodion Romanovich]

what sort of units will khazar have

Just like skeletor said. They also had good artillery according to the sources.

@ALL MOD TEAM MEMBERS: I've updated the Irish tree now. I'm not sure if everything is correct in the current tree but I've tried to incorporate the suggestions and facts mentioned in the discussion here as good as I could. Feel free to come with suggestions for improvements.

I created a new Scottish tree based on the Irish one, but I'm not sure that's correct. If the Irish is ok, can we proceed and discuss the Scottish tree now? Then I'd like to discuss the Welsh one. Can anyone find good sources for the Welsh? They should probably have more units with a combination of bows and meleé weapons.

BTW what does "targe" mean? I just copy-pasted it into the Irish tech tree from the descriptions above.

[King Ragnar]

About Welsh, they should be great ambushers and most of ther units should have a combination of melee bows as the most likely tactics would be to hit with arrows then charge in. I will start to look for information etc for the welsh.

[skeletor]

Great, could you allso see iif you could find some pic's of early longbows.

[King Ragnar]

Here is a pic of a longbow its the earliest i could get, to the person who wants to make the longbowmen, the bow should be the same length as the man (a normal longbow was about 5/6ft).