Tech trees

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Ranika: Do you know which pict units the scots employed most? Any suggestions on which units we should have? Also, shouldn't the Scots have better missile troops than the Irish? I've listed some Irish spear units with zone of recruit, what are the Scottish replacements/equivalents to them? Also, weren't the picts fond of crossbows and employed them early? Did the scots take over the crossbow when the Kingdom of Alba united scots and picts, or did they forget the crossbow for a few centuries before reintroducing it? Finally, the mod ends in 1099 AD, so the level 4 units can be troops that existed near the end of the period. Or were the highlanders introduced so much later than 1099 AD that they should be removed alltogether (remember that the level 4 units won't appear much at all until the end of the game)?

[skeletor]

What? They're a playable faction...

lol, i've completely missed them.. Probably had the NTW list in my head.. Thnx for enlightening me

Anyway, great stuff Ranika, Scion will make the longbow's come alive..

Wold the Irish harp work for the Irish, or should we find a more ancient symbol for them?


-Skel-

[Ranika]

The crossbow (as the medieval weapon) was not used by the Picts. They did use a copy of the arcuballista, but it was poor quality, and the Scots didn't use it, but Pictish levies did. Highlanders don't emerge until about 1160 as a distinct group apart from lowlanders.

I'd recommend, then, only sharing units between the Irish and Scots; not allowing them to have other 'shared' units. They simply would look improper in a Gaelic army. If you're going to do the two factions, may as well do them right; you don't need use everything listed, but, these are my suggestions. A general Gaelic army would be composed of (this'll be followed with appropriate uniques for Scots and Irish), largely;

Gaelic units (Gaels organize in multiples of 5, along the line of 25-50-100-150-200; keep in mind for choosing numbers of men in a unit);
Kernbannal ('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts.

Soikernbannal ('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good; Scots would have some better Regyddite archers probably, will explain below) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except for mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Sleanaghta (Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Scots)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta (Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Claiomhnaghta (Mid-length swordsmen with javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. Faster than an axe, and generally more wieldy than a spear, it allows the soldier using it to manuever into position for thrusts and slashes. The typical Gaelic sword is shorter than a longsword, but not a shortsword. It generally has a leaf-shaped blade, meant to offer wide, sheering cuts, and devestating thrusts that open wide, gaping wounds. It is accompanied with a heavy Gaelic targe, and three light throwing spears; these spears are favored for swordsmen, so to enhance the mobility of these soldiers, but keep them able to fight in the traditional Gaelic manner.

Gaemornaghta (Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Guirran (Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Amguirran Ridire (Gaelic heavy cavalry with axes/swords, and lance, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, should be a bit late period) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On horseback, they form the Amguirran (heavy horsemen); Gaels don't tend to use much heavy cavalry, but when they do, they form a powerful reserve on the field for mowing down enemy infantry.

Clommhornaghta (Longswordsmen with javelins, large round shield, iron helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots), or scale armor) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. The longsword is a rare weapon among Gaels outside of aristocracy, but wars with vikings helped to popularize it. Wealthier soldiers may often binge and purchase a longsword, from viking traders, or commission one from a smith locally. Such warriors would be small in number, but relatively cheap semi-heavy infantry, since they'd provide most, if not all, of their own equipment.

Ridire (Gaelic heavy infantry with axes, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On foot, they form heavy infantry soldiers, with throwing spears, like most other Gaelic infantry, to disrupt an enemy line before charging. When defending, they use a tight formation, akin to a Norse shieldwall, to absorb charges.

Arras (Gaelic general unit, foot nobles with longswords, 'robes', long chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins) -
Description - Gaelic 'nobility' are drawn from numerous places; everyone from the lowest chief to the high king are considered Arras, as well as indepedent, wealthy merchants and traders. They can afford the best training, the best equipment, and the best soldiers to support them. Like other Gaels, they carry javelins to throw at their enemies before charging, and form a tight shieldwall-like formation to absorb an attack. They use long slashing and thrusting swords, often of Norse design, though Gaels also have their own styles of longsword. The heavy Gaelic targe, good quality chain armor, and a well-made iron helmet, provide them great protection against their enemies.

Scottish uniques;
Criosionaghta (Crossbowmen, late period unit, leather armor, an iron helmet, cudgel or mace in melee) -
Description - The crossbow changed the face of warfare in the kingdom of Alba. Scots took well to it, using it combat eachothers' tribes, as the bolt could pierce even the best chain armor. Arcuballistas had been used by pre-Gaelic Picts, but had never found much favor among Scots. They used the crossbow against both eachother and invaders; progessively more against invaders as they grew more stable and unified.

Picts (wear long-sleeve shirt, a heavy coat, trousers, boots, tattooed skin, bearded; all Picts hide in tall grass): -
Pictish Taghnaghta (Pict axemen, with a small round shield) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish axemen use a small round shield, and a small hand axe; they're not the most skilled, but cheap and plentiful shock troops.

Pictish Gaenaghta (Pict spearmen with javelins and a small round shield, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish skirmishers and spearmen were used as harassers and harriers, to weaken and slow down enemy forces. Similar troops made up the majority of Pictish rebels the Scots would eventually have to quell.

Pictish Fiagai (Pict huntsmen with a light crossbow {imitated arcuballista}) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish huntsmen were useful as missile troops and ambushers. Picts had used the arcuballista for centuries, after it was introduced by wars and trade with Romans.

Pictish Argull (Pict nobles with a sword, shield, robe, and leather armor, raise allied morale) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish nobles fought against the Scots, and beside them; they were fairly well equipped and brave.

Strathclyders/Regyddites (from southwest Scotland; they'd look like Gaels in this period):
Gaelo-British Ridire (Look like Ridire, but with a two-handed axe instead of axes/shields, shield strapped to back) -
Description - The Strathclyders and Regyddites were Britons, heavily influenced by Gaelic culture. Their best soldiers often use a heavy axe, in one or two-hands. This axe is often actually little more than a modified wood axe, though they'd later begin using bearded heads and similar other types of axes.

Regyddite Bognaghta ('Bowmen', Fair quality archers with knife in melee, in heavy cloaks; 'Bog' is a Norse word for bow that was adopted slightly later than your start period) -
Description - The Regyddites add substantial ranged power to the Scots compared to normal Gaelic archers. Regyddites have skilled archers, who wear heavy defensive cloaks, and carry long knives in melee. They can fire a fair distance with decent accuracy, and are accustomed to combat, so less likely to break.

Irish uniques;
Rastriagha (Irish berserkers, use an axe, cudgel, or hammer, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix (they were fanatics of different saint cults, and also generally trained soldiers), no armor) -
Description - The Irish have their own berserker tradition, stemming from pagan times, but adapted well into the Christian era. The Irish are generally very fervent people; the most fervent soldiers tend to belong to saint cults, such as the cult of St. Finbar. Their devotion to their people and the Church keeps them constantly training. Many even join monastaries and are actually monks or priests. In battle, they enter a kind of religious-inspired frenzy, and kill anyone they see as a threat to Ireland or Christianity.

Inishnaghta (Irish islanders from the satellite islands of Ireland, with heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe (two blades), heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin) -
Description - The islanders of Ireland live among the many sattelite islands. They fight with a version of the Gaelic axe, with two blades, and carry heavy throwing spears. They still paint their skin, and are some of the bravest soldiers in Ireland, though they wear no armor, but a helmet, and instead use a heavy cloak as defense.

Maiobhanaghta (Irish slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Irish. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic Irish often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.

Caeisornaghta (Irish macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace}, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for century, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head. They are another arm of Irish infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Dinuadda-Claiomhnaghta (Irish longswordsmen; using longsword in two-hands though (not a greatsword), padded armor, iron helmet, available in southern Ireland) -
Description - Southern Irish longswords sometimes accomodated longer grips, meant to be used in two hands. Longswords were somewhat rare in Ireland to begin with, and these particular weapons rarely proliferated far, but they were a favored weapon of numerous champions and wealthier soldiers, as they could be used in one or two hands. In two hands, they would be able to deal more damage.

Carpata - Gaelic chariot; chariot models don't count (they are counted with siege engines), but it'd probably need a new model for the driver. Would probably look similar to a British Wetwang chariot in shape, but less decoration than you see on reconstructions; riders would be Sleanaghta or similar infantry, maybe even just use them, in which case no new model would be needed at all; would raise allied morale
Description - The Gaels still used chariots in this period. They were in rapid decline in use, and had rarely been much of a weapon for war outside of a few regions, where the ground was smooth and flat enough to make good use of them, but they were still a popularized possession, and it was rare for aristocrats to not own at least one chariot for formal events. In war, they were used to drop nobles off into the middle of the fight (which can't be replicated in game), and as a missile platform from which the riders would hurl javelins, and also to crush light infantry by riding over them with the chariot's substantial weight.

Mercenaries in Scotland and Ireland;
Ostmen (Ireland and southwest Scotland only; Gaelicized Norsemen; dressed like Gaels, but with a Norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather or chain armor, round metal helmet, trews)
Cymri Dynne (All of Britain and eastern Ireland; mercenary Welsh archers)
Gael Gaedhilbuanna (No province should start with these in them, but they should generate slowly; Gaelic-Norse raiders, available in eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland)
Gaelbuanna (Gaelic mercenaries in all of Britain, can be a number of mercenaries, really; just use the 'basic' units as mercs; names are easy, instead of 'naghta', the name ends in 'buanna' {'mercenaries'})


I'm aware you probably won't do all or most of that, but it's what I'd recommend for accurate Gaels (and keeps them from looking at all like Saxons or Welsh, since they didn't at all look like them).

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks Ranika, I think we could use a lot of them, thank god we havn't begun on these factions.

Legio: I think this is important information when setting up the tech tree (excluding and including units). It seems like one faction cannot have two units using the same model. Max number of models is 255, so shared units is a blessing. For instance, a spearman that on modelbasis can be shared between more nations (mainly helmets and weapons are important here) is very positive, while multiple units within the same faction that is almost alike is not. As a consequence, unique units that requires an unique model occupies 1 of this number 255 - while for instance a peasantmodel used by 6 nations only occupies one too (of course the max 500 units number should also be taken into consideration, but this number is quite high. Don't believe we will have that many units in this first release).

Of course we need a lot of unique models, but you should know about it anyway. In a version 2 we can then easely include a houndred or more units if wanted. The number 255 isn't that high when you think about horses, mercenaries ++

[Ranika]

All the mercenaries I listed should probably be able to use other unit models, and won't need unique ones. The Gaels would both share all of eachothers models, and horses shouldn't take too many model spaces over all. Really, that was a problem with EB. We plotted out units before realizing model limitations. Before doing a lot of work, you should plot all of your unit lists, and model usage. It'll save a ton of time and grief. Remember to also plot 2 models for each faction for the family generals and the lesser generals (though, again, Scots and Irish can use the same models there).

[ScionTheWorm]

thought about how we're going to name the units yet, legio? will we have CA-style and call a spade a spade, or maybe use names that was used in their native language? Ranika certainly brings up the issue with his expertise..

[Ranika]

If you need help, I can do Gaelic and Welsh names, some Saxon names. Unit space shouldn't be a big problem, just model space, so you can do a lot of units in different languages, that use the same model (like a generic militia that'd work for much of Europe and such).

Side note; edited my large post with units and what not, changed some names for varieties sake, rethought some choices on it, etc. Subsequently, I'd like to point out a little oddity. While the Norse are stereotyped as having used huge amounts of axes, they often used, instead, rather common, mass produced swords in favor of axes (at least in Britain and Ireland). To the contrary, their Irish and Scottish enemies both used substantially more axes in combat, but are usually depicted with swords more than axes.

[ScionTheWorm]

i'm very curious... do you know and remember all this by heart? anyway it's really helpful, hope we can get up the island tech trees within some days. (i'm skinning them)

I think we should get the naming convention thing resolved quickly... might even effect faction names, well I don't know, going to sleep now.

[Ranika]

I tend to, yes; I have a thing for memorization. It allows one to act much quicker than trying to rummage through books. There's plenty of stuff from the period though; the 'prophecies' (not actually prophecies of future events; they were actually just books and papers written on current events of the age), like the one that describes the conquest of Alba, lots of 'rolls' that number the soldiers involved (though they can vary, but the type of soldiers are consistent). I can help with the Welsh too, if you need that, but you seem to have that well enough in hand. The Welsh can logically share a great deal with Saxons (peasants and basic infantry would all look pretty similar), superficially (names and such would vary, assuming you used local names, but the appearance would generally be similar). However, Welsh were especially fond of skirmishers, and varied types of bowmen. The longbow DID exist (it had killed a Mercian king at Wansdyke in 825), so longbowmen are perfectly valid as a Welsh unit (and mercenary unit as well, Welsh longbows were hired pretty widely through Britain and northern Europe).

[GoreBag]

A sidenote to Ranika's comments about Gaelic dress: although the "clan tartan" didn't exist at the time, there should be a difference in tartan cloth from unit to unit - the position of a man in society was indicated by the number of colours on his plaid. Kings wore 7 colours, nobles 4 (druids, I've read, used to wear 6). Commoners should have a very low number of colours on their clothing.

[Ranika]

The lowest number of colors would be 2; slaves wore 1, but slavery had been outlawed in Gaelic society (the Irish Church outlawed slavery as St. Patrick had been a slave in Ireland), except a kind of 'indentured servant', which were still counted as citizens, though in service to some one else (would still wear 2 colors). Only prisoners of war wore 1 color (as they were provided 'appropriate' clothing, and they'd not show up as a unit anywhere). 7 colors were worn by the high king, but 'nobility' had multiple levels. There were also restriction on the TYPES of color worn. The colors were worn (to reiterate) on a shoulder cloak (draped around the chest and shoulder blades, fastened at the right shoulder), or on a full length, hooded cloak. The leine (shirt) would be a single color, often saffron-dyed, but there are other colors they used as well.

Arras (aristocrats) - Can use bright reds, greens, blues, black, and white;
High King - 7 colors
Lesser Kings - 6 colors
Chieftans - 5 colors
Chiefs - 4 colors

Tuatha (non-aristocrats) - Can use dark reds, greens, blues, cannot use black or white;
Champions (like Ridire) - 4 colors
Professional Soldiers - 3 colors
Citizens/Levy Soldiers - 2 colors
Slaves (in the pagan period; a moot point here)/Prisoners - 1 color

[Rodion Romanovich]

thought about how we're going to name the units yet, legio? will we have CA-style and call a spade a spade, or maybe use names that was used in their native language? Ranika certainly brings up the issue with his expertise..

I think units should have their native names, except when they are generic units.

New suggestion for Welsh and Scottish tech trees:

SCOTS
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (regyddite bognaghta [ZOR southwest Scotland, archers]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (criosionaghta [crossbowmen, leather armor, iron helmet, cudgel/mace backup])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (pictish gaenaghta [light pict spearmen, javelins, small round shield]), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather vest/coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, leather coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, leather coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (pictish taghnaghta [light pict axemen, small round shield - smaller than Gaelic targe]), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat ], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive]), Master weaponsmith (gaelo-british arras [two-handed axe, no shield, otherwise much like arras])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

IRISH
====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - rastriagha [axe/cudgel/hammer - I suggest hammer?, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix, no armor, well trained], requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (maiobhanaghta [slingers, small round shield, knife backup, better than the Irish archers]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (-)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (-), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, padded coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears], caeisornaghta [macemen, round-headed mace - not flanged, like medieval period mace, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive], inishnaghta [heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe - two blades, heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin, ZOR Ireland]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

MERCENARIES
===========
- Ostmen (heavy axemen, level 3 equivalent, fairly expensive, dressed like Gaels, norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather armor, round metal helmet, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and all of Scotland)
- Gael gaedhilbuanna [gaelic-norse raiders, light infantry, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland - perhaps some more. Not existing from start, medium replenish speed)

Question to Ranika: are Cymri Dynne same as welsh longbowmen?

[Ranika]

Cymri Dynne are mercenary Welsh shortbowmen; Cymri Dynneabhr are mercenary Welsh longbow men.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Cymri Dynne are mercenary Welsh shortbowmen; Cymri Dynneabhr are mercenary Welsh longbow men.

Ok, thanks

@ALL: I've updated the saxon tech tree a little now, by adding javelin-throwing ability to some cavalry units. Some sources imply that saxon cavalry threw their spears/javelins apart from using them in close combat, so at least some should have that ability.

I'm also working on improving the welsh tech tree now. The biggest problem is that there are almost no sources at all available. The best thing I found was this, which is probably not an entire reliable source:

"In war this nation is very severe in the first attack, terrible by their clamour and looks, filling the air with horrid shouts and the deep-toned clangour of very long trumpets; swift and rapid in their advances and frequent throwing of darts. Bold in the first onset, they cannot bear a repulse, being easily thrown into confusion as soon as they turn their backs; and they trust to flight for safety, without attempting to rally . . . Their courage manifests itself chiefly in the retreat, when they frequently return, and, like the Parthians, shoot their arrows behind them; and, as after success and victory in battle, even cowards boast of their courage, so, after a reverse of fortune, even the bravest men are not allowed their due claims of merit. Their mode of fighting consists in chasing the enemy or in retreating. This light-armed people, relying more on their activity than on their strength, cannot struggle for the field of battle, enter into close engagement, or endure long and severe actions . . . Though defeated and put to flight on one day, they are ready to resume the combat on the next, neither dejected by their loss, nor by their dishonour; and although, perhaps, they do not display great fortitude in open engagements and regular conflicts, yet they harass the enemy by ambuscades and nightly sallies. Hence, neither oppressed by hunger or cold, nor fatigued by martial labours, nor despondent in adversity, but ready, after a defeat, to return immediately to action, and again endure the dangers of war; they are as easy to overcome in a single battle, as difficult to subdue in a protracted war."
Giraldus Cambrensis 'Descriptio Cambriae'

It only confirms that the welsh relied much on bows and skirmishing tactics and less on heavy infantry or much cavalry, although they certainly had good cavalry for the leader and his closest men as pretty much all armies of the time. Also the source is probably exaggerating everything, the rest of the quotations I read for that same guy all contained phrases like: "the welsh are, more than any other people, [...]" or other formulations implying the author has a type of expressing himself that makes all things sound exaggerated. So the welsh will probably not need an extremely low morale in-game, neither should their skirmishing abilities and lack of strength in close combat be overestimated, although they'll probably more than for example saxons rely on ranged and skirmishing troops.

For the later Welsh armies (at the end of our period) there are better sources. The later Welsh armies organized themselves into two parts: the "Teulu" and a militia, i.e. the standard system with a core army and locally temporarily recruited levies. For the Welsh, the Teulu was less than 200 men strong and was simply a cavalry bodguard for kings, princes and chieftains in the shape of heavy retainers wearing chainmail, helmet and shield. The earliest Teulu used spear and javelins, the later ones (level 4 in our tech tree probably) used lance. The militia was recruited in a way similar to feudal recruitment, only difference is that it's claimed the welsh saw the service as an honor rather than an obligation. Men over 14 years of age were subject to this type of recruitment.

For the early army we can only guess the composition, but I think we can assume they used one core army centered around the chieftain and lower quality militia recruited temporarily. The militia armed with bows are however of higher quality than militia of other factions because the longbows etc. are extensively used for hunting. The core army will also be smaller for welsh than for others, meaning few recruitable meleé infantry units of professional/elite type. Later, the welsh will still use a small core army of good cavalry and rely as heavily as before on their levies, who will still be of unusually high quality at least when it comes to the archery.

A first suggestion:

WELSH
=====
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (cymri dynne [short bows of very good quality]), Bowmaker's workshop (cymri dynne +1 xp), Bowmaker's guild (cymri dynneabhr [longbows, long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Master bowmaker (cymri dynneabhr +1 xp)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (welsh skirmishers/dartmen [low defense, low attack, good charge, short spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [the usual ones with their good anti-cav bonus], welsh heavy skirmishers/dartmen [medium defense, medium attack, good charge, longer spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry [good medium/heavy cavalry however no match for the best feudal or frankish knights, better than saxon sergeants in meleé but less impressive than the best saxon knights, ZOR west wealas], early teulu [spear and javelins, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to frankish knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (teulu [lance, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to feudal knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (welsh axemen [axe and javelin, medium shield, good attack, can hide in long grass]), Weaponsmith's guild (welsh bandits [axe or sword and bow, medium shield, can hide in long grass]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

[ScionTheWorm]

Was wondering about zor and auxillary units.. will for instance the irish only be able to reqruit their units in lands far away and same for for instance welsh reqruiting longbows..? maybe only low level units far from home?

[Rodion Romanovich]

For those units where ZOR isn't mentioned at all I had in mind you'd be able to recruit them anywhere. Generally, I try to make all militia recruitable almost anywhere, whereas the better troops are often, but not always, restricted. It depends on the recruiting system. The Byzantines historically got problems with losing recruitment areas so I think they should have problems with it in the mod. If a faction almost only uses militia or other troops that require little training they should be able to train all their troops anywhere IMO. Still, they'll need some time before they can train their troops as I'll try to make all troop buildings incompatible with each other if possible, so you have to tear down an enemy's buildings and can't retrain your troops in newly conquered settlements. So for non-ZOR units you can recruit them anywhere, but only after some time which you can see as the time needed for loyalty in the settlement to increase.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay sounds good. We could make a militia unit for each faction with some minor ajustments in the skins (so it won't be that much work). These could have lower loyality for instance, and the other troops should not be able to be reqruited before after some assimelating time. (I don't like the idea of reqruting viking units in sahara for instance)

[Ranika]

Of mercenaries in Britain, could also be Curuarci; they were Gaelic assassins, mostly, but they also fought as shock troops. They'd be Curuarcibuanna (Red Dog mercenaries); they were also used as shock troops. They wore clothing dyed red (hence the name) in battle, to stand out (they were pretty brash). Likely be armed with swords (they were pretty wealthy), heavy shields, and throwing spears, like other Gaelic infantry; maybe adept at hiding in tall grass and the like. More or less would just be high quality shock troops. Wouldn't need a new model, could use the same model as Claiomhnaghta.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Of mercenaries in Britain, could also be Curuarci; they were Gaelic assassins, mostly, but they also fought as shock troops. They'd be Curuarcibuanna (Red Dog mercenaries); they were also used as shock troops. They wore clothing dyed red (hence the name) in battle, to stand out (they were pretty brash). Likely be armed with swords (they were pretty wealthy), heavy shields, and throwing spears, like other Gaelic infantry; maybe adept at hiding in tall grass and the like. More or less would just be high quality shock troops. Wouldn't need a new model, could use the same model as Claiomhnaghta.

Added now, thanks

@skeletor: Because you wanted to skin khazar units soon, I've started more thorough research to present a more final version of the khazar tech tree. I'll post the progress soon.

[skeletor]

Superbe!

I'm so looking forward to skin these fellas:




-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

SOME INFO ABOUT KHAZARS (SUMMARY OF WHAT I'VE READ):
===============================================
- The Khagan was formal leader, but the Bek, who was commander-in-cheif over the army, was the actual leader in all foreign affairs. Diplomacy, foreign politics and leading of the military was his task. The Bek was chosen after proven success on battlefield
- The army consisted of Jews, Christians, Muslims and Pagans at the same time - even at the time when religious warfare was the order of the day around the Mediterranean and in Western Europe
- The khazars had better organization than other Turkish and steppe peoples, and also had a more settled, urban than nomadic culture than many of the other steppe peoples. Pechenegs and Bulgars were considered "hordes" in comparison.
- First military significant appearance recorded in history occurred in 627 A.D. 40,000 Khazar horsemen allied to Byzantine Emperor Heraclius took part in campaign against Sassanian Persia.
- They could withstand the arab expansion well, but they lost much land and men and it took some time before they gained strength again. Then they went on the offensive against the arabs among others.
- They used good artillery already in the 7th century - ballistae and catapults (in-game the latter would be mangonels)
- They were however stopped from further expansion south after a while, and their further expansion was instead directed to the west. Territory was now extended from Caspian sea and lower Volga to north shore of Black sea as far as to the Dnepr to the west. It is possible that it was the Khazars that actually founded Kiev, sometime before the 9th century, but at least they for sure had control over the area just east of Kiev at this time. Tributes were recieved after actions against Alans, Magyars, Goths, Greeks of the Crimea and the Volga-Bulgars, which improved Khazar economy and allowed them to use mainly mercenaries for military service, just like the Byzantines. However, just like the Byzantines, loss of territories, tributes and other necessities for a good economy made the system crash when the Pechenegs rose in power and the Kievan Rus established a strong empire around Kiev. Tributes were lost, and some recruiting zones were beyond their control (in-game simulated by ZOR for certain units in only those provinces). A campaign of the Rus Prince Svyatoslav destroyed most of Khazar in the middle of the 10th century. Rus and viking influence here also competed for the trading that the khazars were carrying out. Last remnants of khazar were wiped out in early to middle 11th century, but small tribes emigrated westwards and survived some centuries more.

SOME KHAZAR TROOPS AND MILITARY-RELATED INFO:
========================================
- The Arsiyah cavalry formed the bulk of the Khazar standing army. Mostly non-arab muslims from Khwarazm and various central Asian city states along the silk road. They were mostly recruited as mercenaries.
- Khazar nobles and the Bek should have a good bodyguard in shape of a heavy cavalry force.
- Khazarian War Wagon - used to transport and protect the Khagan in battle. Defensive device, not a mobile missile-firing platform. Not a chariot either. Can't be represented in-game unless it's possible to have a one-man unit with high defense but 0 or 1 in attack, but I'm not sure that's possible. Anyone who knows if it's possible to have a one-man unit based on a chariot?
- Torkils and Burtas were small Turkish tribes from which other mounted troops above levy quality were recruited. Torkils lived at khazar west borders as a buffer between Khazars and the Pechenegs (so this means Khazar won't recruit any pecheneg troops), near Kiev area (possibly ZOR Kiev?) and Burtas just north of Caspian sea.
- Levy cavalry and infantry was recruited from alan, volga-bulgarian and some maygar tributaries - but this recruiting possibility was lost when khazar lost tributaries and influence during Kievan Rus expansion time.
- Bactrian camels were used to transport troops, equipment and supplies. Perhaps this means the khazars could also have an option of fighting with camel troops occasionally (but the camels should be limited in many ways to prevent them from appearing much at all on battlefields, or if necessary - removed).
- Perhaps add a unit with drums and other musical instruments that has an unnerving effect on opponents. Turkish armies were often using musicians to unnerve opponents, although if we aren't keeping any other unnerving troops these musicians could perhaps be worth excluding too. However, I think there's more motivation to keep turkish musicians than any other singing/chanting/screeching troops.
- A small core of better khazar guard, a type of infantry, would assist levy footmen of different types. Slavic and perhaps even Rus levy footmen could fight as infantry for the khazars.
- Khazar, slav and alan archers of levy quality would support the khazars. The sources don't specifically speak of very good khazar archers, so archery shouldn't be extremely good, although not extremely bad either.
- As there are so many types of different auxilia I'm creating units called "auxilia x" in some cases. The Arsiyah troops will however be own units considering their importance. Arsiyah could also be called Khwarazmians, but Arsiyah seems to be the most frequently used name in the sources.

THE KHAZAR TECH TREE
==================
The tech tree in the first post has also been updated.

I believe the cavalrymen on the upper picture could become alan auxilia cavalry. On the second picture, the knight at the front could become arsiyah cavalry or khazar royal cavalry. The guy at the back could probably become khazar horse archers or perhaps khazar auxilia horse archers.

[oj121]

Ok, thanks

WELSH
=====
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (cymri dynne [short bows of very good quality]), Bowmaker's workshop (cymri dynne +1 xp), Bowmaker's guild (cymri dynneabhr [longbows, long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Master bowmaker (cymri dynneabhr +1 xp)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (welsh skirmishers/dartmen [low defense, low attack, good charge, short spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [the usual ones with their good anti-cav bonus], welsh heavy skirmishers/dartmen [medium defense, medium attack, good charge, longer spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry [good medium/heavy cavalry however no match for the best feudal or frankish knights, better than saxon sergeants in meleé but less impressive than the best saxon knights, ZOR west wealas], early teulu [spear and javelins, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to frankish knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (teulu [lance, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to feudal knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (welsh axemen [axe and javelin, medium shield, good attack, can hide in long grass]), Weaponsmith's guild (welsh bandits [axe or sword and bow, medium shield, can hide in long grass]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

I like the basic idea that you have got with the Welsh troops yet they have a very small selection of troops. Maybe introduce a high level swordsman and an armoured spearman of equivilaant quality to the Saxons. Also seeing as the Welsh are so fond of skirmishing, shouldnt elite units such as the Welsh bandits and maybe some of the other skimish troops have the ability to hide anywhere? Im sure others would agree. Also i feel they should have the ability to have combat bonuses in forests etc like the Germans in Rome.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I like the basic idea that you have got with the Welsh troops yet they have a very small selection of troops. Maybe introduce a high level swordsman and an armoured spearman of equivilaant quality to the Saxons. Also seeing as the Welsh are so fond of skirmishing, shouldnt elite units such as the Welsh bandits and maybe some of the other skimish troops have the ability to hide anywhere? Im sure others would agree. Also i feel they should have the ability to have combat bonuses in forests etc like the Germans in Rome.

The campaign map we'll use will probably have more forests and grass to hide in than the R:TW map, so hide anywhere might not be needed for any unit. But I'm definitely considering to give the welsh abilities to hide well in grass or everywhere. As better footmen I'm considering to add dismounted teulu but they'd be really expensive.

[oj121]

Can you send me a good link about the Teulu. Im a welshman who has studied Medival history to degree level but i cant find anything about them. Its a bit off topic but what are they meant to be. Mounted nobles i presume?

[skeletor]

http://www.welshdragon.net/resources.../warfare.shtml

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/kammerb/combat.htm

Strange, i found them mentioned many places, usualy as the cheiftain's, or princes bodyguard

"The prince had his teulu - not a family in the modern sense of the Welsh word - but a bodyguard. The teulu was a band of fighting men of noble status, the uchelwyr , led by a loyal relation of the prince, the penteulu . In time of war, the prince could also call on his freemen to serve in his army, the llu."

-Skel-

[oj121]

Thanks man. Appreciate the link. I love Welsh history so much i study it in my free time for fun. Plus i graduated with a proper degree today in Ancient and Medieval History. Yay for me

[Ranika]

Some other mercenaries or soldiers to consider;

Mercenaries/Regionals;

Æxberendan - 'Axe-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary axemen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æxberendan were also just any soldier carrying a axe. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany

Æscberendan - 'Spear-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary spearmen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æscberendan were also just any soldier carrying a spear. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany


Some types of Frankish/Germanic soldiers, perhaps of some use, though the names may be a bit dated, but possibly for Lotharingia?;

Woígan or Wígan - Frankish 'Warriors', spear specifically would be æscwoígan, acswoígan/æxwoígan would be axemen, bægwígan would be archers, etc. Warriors were non-professional soldiers.

Milæscan - Frankish regular spearmen; I think from the Germanic 'æsc' (spear), and Latin 'miles' (soldiers)

Milæxan - Frankish regular axemen


Some Welsh units;

Alltbadwyr - Actually only noted (to my knowledge) at a single battle (Dun Finwain), they were horse archers, probably an outgrowth of Sarmatian auxiliaries brought in the Roman period. They engaged an invading force of the Des Coillai, and were only driven off by slingmen, who could outrange them.

Alltwigwylln - 'Hill Men', generally drawn from more isolated tribes, Garret of Tygan describes them fighting in support of an allied Irish army in Cumbria; "They carry clubs banded in iron and great shields, and some fight naked to the waist, but some wear leather shirts, but they all wear white cloaks and carry 'gae'"; 'gae' is ambigous here, hence my not translating it. Gae could be a spear, or darts, or a javelin.

Gwoidyll Ayfwr - In western Wales, there was a substantial Gaelic population and sub-culture; this was a by-product of the west of Wales once belong to the Des Mumai of Ireland, and their large colonization projects. In this period, the Gaels remained, and some of their local nobles were employed as a compliment to Welsh armies. Probably just as spearmen, or some other form of light infantry or skirmishers.


I should note that much of this from memory, and my knowledge of Germanic languages is poor, at best. The mercenary names are from Scottish rolls (so, imitating the Saxon language, it may be inaccurate), and the Frankish stuff is from actual Frankish writing, but the names may be out of date; more Latin worked into the language over time and worked out much of the German.

[GoreBag]

Interesting that aex would ba an axe, but aesc would be a spear. Such a slight different.

I remember reading that the typically white trash version of "ask", "aks", is actually correct by Saxon standards, because there were two forms of the same verb in use at a certain period - "Ascen" and "acsen". "Ascen" eventually proved to be more popular, hence why it's the proper form of the word in English, but there is really no difference in meaning between the two.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[Ranika]

I do worry about using the names due to the similarity of the them, but my Anglo-Saxon is too poor to know any other words for 'spear', and that's the only way I've ever seen it written.

[GoreBag]

Narayanese seems to speak old Saxon. Maybe he should be contacted.