Tech trees

[GoreBag]

Narayanese seems to speak old Saxon. Maybe he should be contacted.

[ScionTheWorm]

Brainstorming a little, I'm a little bored... sorry if these issues are decided already.
- Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.
- Hmm... maybe possible, don't know. If for instance you are norway; they are initially pagan, but if a man with the trait "christian" is becoming king, you need to christianize the provinces to not rebelling.
- Trees: not really about the tech tree, but let's reduce the size of trees on battlemap by 1/4 or something. Could easely be done in max i believe...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Brainstorming a little, I'm a little bored... sorry if these issues are decided already.
- Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.
- Hmm... maybe possible, don't know. If for instance you are norway; they are initially pagan, but if a man with the trait "christian" is becoming king, you need to christianize the provinces to not rebelling.
- Trees: not really about the tech tree, but let's reduce the size of trees on battlemap by 1/4 or something. Could easely be done in max i believe...

I think no. 2 is impossible and therefore no. 1 isn't that good to include. Unfortunately this means Norway etc. have to be pagan all the way through the mod... No. 3 makes sense, but I personally don't know how to do it, it's probably done by editing one of the models files. 1/4 is IMO an appropriate amount to decrease the height with.

[Incongruous]

I think well have to re-write a bit of history because during the earlt 11cen. Magyar was invaded and a puppet Magyar prince enthroned, all ties with the pagan steppe were lost. So maybe you should leave knights out of the Magyar equasion.

so no christianised cavalry?.

Cavalry

Magyar units should be:
Cavalry.
Magyer Tribesmen (rather like the Scythian nobles very fast and very powerful bows) and Kabars (exactly the same as Khazar horse archers)
to
Arpad Aristocracy(stronger and more decorative version of Magyer) and Székely (Rugged Hunnic peoples, semi-civilised looking, amazing firepower greater than the longbow) and Avars (Mailed horse archers, almost as powerful as the Székely )
to
Carpathian Riders/nobles (the people round the carpathians held on tightly to Magyar tradition) these people are just a re-vamped version of Arpad Aristocracy.
Pannonian Avars, these are the westernised descendants of the steppe Avars and are armed with lances and armoured with chainmail and a Frankic helm.
fejedelem, these are powerfull landowners and each one is the head of a Magyar tribe, they were followed into battle by the best of the best (heavily armoured Magyars carryind a bow and curved sword, they would be like Frankish knights except faster and carrying a bow and curved sword).
Kende , this is the supreme chief of the Magyars, he was important because only he could keep the tribes unified, he would be followed into battle by ten hand picked Fejedelem (these men were armed with long lances and curved swords, they would also be wearing Frankic type armour but with a little Magyar design in it.)

[ScionTheWorm]

I think well have to re-write a bit of history because during the earlt 11cen. Magyar was invaded and a puppet Magyar prince enthroned, all ties with the pagan steppe were lost. So maybe you should leave knights out of the Magyar equasion.

so no christianised cavalry?.

Yes, I vote for no knights. If magyar is invaded in the game by a catholic faction, the ties will be lost, catholic knights will be reqruitable, and it won't be rewritten... right?

Do you know how the bulgarian unit list may relate to the magyars? Not necessarily detailed, but I guess there would be a lot of similar units like for irish/scots in this timeperiod?

[ScionTheWorm]

I think no. 2 is impossible and therefore no. 1 isn't that good to include. Unfortunately this means Norway etc. have to be pagan all the way through the mod... No. 3 makes sense, but I personally don't know how to do it, it's probably done by editing one of the models files. 1/4 is IMO an appropriate amount to decrease the height with.

So no more religion than rtw-cultures and the senate-as-pope thing? I guess it's ok, but I think nifty building or traits could do something... let's see.

Harald StorHarde is born in 930 a.d. with the trait "very christian" or maybe something much better. ok this can only be realized if a trait can affect morale negatively in a province - unless a specific building is built. this building would in that case be "christianize province". in fact, if a character has this trait, the province should become very rebellous so a rebel army probably would attack, to simulate how peasants do not welcome this new horseshit..

this is just in case though, I guess it's a longshot... besides, I think many players, being metalheads and all, welcome a pagan north without christianity.

[Incongruous]

Ok Bulgars.

I think that by this time their army was preodominatley on foot.
So cavalry.
I can't read the language so these are going to be Anglophied names ok.
Bulgar nobles.
Scale mail, triangular shields of wood, pionted metal helmet, long thrusting spear and short straight sword.
Bulgar plainsmen.
Scail and leather armour, bows, leather pointed cap, very fast.
Central Bulgars.
Mail armour, large semi-circular shield, bow, the helmet would of been pionted at the top, with a large rim over the forehead and mail hanging down at the back. Trousesrs would of been quite baggy.
Bulgars of the black sea.
These Bulgars would have been some sort of medium armoured spearmen.
A large amount of scail mail, same kind of helmet as the central bulgars, but this time with a metal eyepiece.
There is also eveidence of some kind of fast swordsman, who I suppose would have worn scail and leather and also carried bows as a secondry weapon.

[Incongruous]

Magyar infantry.

Magyer
simple as hell kind'a infantry.
(really fast), leather armour, no shield and a long curved blade. not the best.
to
Magyer retainers, chain mail, long curved sword, and what I can only describe as well, viking helm, you know with the eye piece and nose gaurd, with cahinmail hanging down the neck And Fejedelem Avars, (these guys are really quite good) long spear, chain mail and leather boots and Frankic helms.
to
Székely (these guys have the same name as their mounted countrymen, so you might want to call them Székely infantry), these guys are real nutters, they wear chain mail topped with lether "Roman looking" shoulder gaurds, they wear the same helm as Magyar retainers except they have chain mail hanging down from the entire rim of the Helm, so all you can see was their eyes, they carried a straight sword and a hunnic bow.
to
Fejedelem Magyar, these are troops raised from a "princes own houshold, (they would rather die than see their prince killed), Chainmail hauberk and a long rich red and yellow tunic they wear underneath that comes down to their knees, leather trousers and tall leather boots. Long two handed curved blade, these guys wear the same helmet as Székely infantry except sometimes they would put on feathery crests, these men also carried bows, (they would be used the same way as pila, fired before closing with an enemy). also Buddha Magyar, Fankic type infantry, mail, fancic helm and a francic sword, (their just Frakish fan club really.

[ScionTheWorm]

Thanks Bopa, I think you're really providing lots of excellent information on subjects we haven't got any proprer research on yet..

[GoreBag]

Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.

Marian reforms, perhaps? Bops said that the puppet prince was enthroned in the 11c, which was also when Scandinavia was fully Christianised, if I recall correctly. Perhaps an event should be triggered around that time to represent the Christian transformation of the formerly pagan states, thus allowing the more Christian units to be recruited.

This is just my "two cents", but I'm in the same boat as Scion in the sense that I've been pondering it.

[Incongruous]

NOTE:
The Magyar names have been simplified in order to show some kind of advancement structure if you know what I mean e.g Magyer-Magyer retainers-.Fejedelem Magyar. I just thought that going "EB" style on the Magyars might confuse people who don't speak the language. But if you want I can put back the original names.

[Incongruous]

Ok been doing some research, the Magyars should also have Bulgar, Frankish and a few Greek troops.
I would guess that they would be using a unit similar if not identical to central Bulgars, they should have some sort of East Fankian unit and some kingd of Greaco-Turkic skirmishers.

[Incongruous]

Here is a great picture of a magyar kende surrounded by Fejedelem and his mounted retainers.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/rauno.huikari...900luvulla.jpg

A magyar noble of the Arpadian dynasty.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/rauno.huikari.../jousimies.jpg

A Magyar bow, far more powerful than the longbow at this time period I believe.
http://www.atarn.org/magyar/Image27.gif

This is a drawing based off a wall picture, it will help you understand how the Magyer infantry looked like.
http://www.atarn.org/magyar/Image28.gif

and here is a revised version of the Magyar millitary, far more historically
acurate and I have put back the correct names.

Infantry


Kisebbik Magyar.
A long knee lenght robe of red and yellow cloth under a thicker brown woolen garment that covered the chest, pointed leather cap rimmed with fur, a Magyar recurve bow, and either a spear, a sabre, or an axe.

Kisebbik Kabar , a thigh lenght tunic of green wool, knee length brown leather boots, a Magyar recurve bow, a simple iron skull cap and leather strips wrapped round their arm from their fingers to their elbows.

to second rung.

Kisebbik Magyar ból a Fejedelem, these are the lesser men from a Fejedelem's (princes) Magyer/tribe, they wear thigh length leather boots, a thigh lenght tunic of red cloth under a hauberk of scale armour and an iron pointed helmet with chainmail covering the back of the neck, carry the Magyar sabre aka. Hunnicus Gladius, a Magyar recurve bow and a round wooden shield covered in leather.

Lábfejek ból Székely fiú ból a Hunor, these are the Huns of the Alföld sons of Hunor brother of Magor father of the Magyars. These people are hard and rugged fighters, all that is left of the "Scourge of God". They wear a grey woollen thigh lenght tunic, and knee lenght leather boots, they wear on their torso a leather jerkin trimmed with Wolf fur and a leather pointed cap also trimmed with wolf fur. They carry the same bow as the Magyars and the same sword they also carry a small iron round shield.

Kisebbik Avars ból a Alföld, these heavily armoured spearmen are a strange concept in a Magyar army, they are slow moving heavily armoured spearmen. They wear a chainmail longsleeved hauberk that reaches just below their knees, a pair of fur boots and gloves, a pointed iron/steel helmet with a nose gaurd and eyepeices with chain mail attached from ear to ear. As a weapon they carry a long one handed thrusting spear, and in the other hand they hold a wooden tringular shield rimmed with steel/iron.

To Third Rung.

Lábfejek Magyar, these are the ultimate when it comes to pure Magyar shock infantry. long sleeved Chain mail hauberk, leather boots and gloves, a large two handed Magyar sabre, a pointed steel helm with a leather neck guard from cheek to cheek and alarge round shield on their back.

Kende's Avars. They were described by europeans as carrying "Halberds", they would wear a rich red and yellow cloth knee length tunic under a thigh length long sleeved mail hauberk, they wore knee lenght leather boots and "cut-off" gloves. Their helmet would have been the same as the Lábfejek Magyar but with a hoarse hair crest of red and yellow.

Kende's Lábfejek, these men were born to fire a bow, their skill is unmatched, they are the elite of the Magyar infantry. They would wear a long sleeved knee length cloth tunic of Red and yellow trimmed with green, under an open sleevless jacket of red and yellowed dyed wool trimmed with white fure. Their leather boots were knee lenght and black as were their gloves, their trousers were of a fine green cloth. They carried the best and most powerful recurve bowsand a steel sabre, on their heads they wore pointed steel helmet from which hung a chainmail neck gaurd from ear to ear and atop it they had a red, yellow and green hoarse hair crest.

Magyars ból Buda. These Magyar serve as the guards of the Royal city of Buda, they are formiddible fighters the elite among the seven Magyar tribes, the Huns, Avars and Khabars. They wield the long straight sword of the Franks, carry the Frankish kite shield and are armoured in exactly the same fashion as Frankish knights. Among them would be the Magyar priest the Táltos who would carry into battle the legendry banner of Árpád, The Turul.

I hope this is ok, when do you think you will have the first moddels done?

[Incongruous]

I guess the "foriegn" troops could be region specific.