Tech trees

[Ranika]

The 'Englisc' are the Saxons for all purposes here; you can keep ranting about their flat material wealth or approach it from a logical stand point. If they were truly wealthy, they would've built forts, not burhs, to defend their borders. The Welsh kingdoms had better developed land, and had border forts; they were comparatively richer and better managed monetarily. Just saying "The Englisc had more money" doesn't actually make them richer; it's a matter of comparative earnings and loss. You've given no argument to what exactly makes them 'richer', except that you say so, even though the facts of the matter point to them being so poor that they had to give peasants land just to defend themselves. That isn't a sign of a wealthy kingdom at all, it points to a very struggling kingdom. For example, if I have a square kilometer of land, and I'm making two pieces of currency off of it a day, and my neighbor has four square km of land, and he's only making one piece of currency off of each region, he is comparatively poor than me, despite having more money, because my lands are making more money. The same problem existed in England. Undeveloped land was yielding little of real value. The only benefit they had was a lot of land (compared to their neighbors) and many citizens. It earned them more overall money, but they were poorly managed and could barely afford the basic necessities to keep their kingdom in order. It doesn't matter how much money they had, it matters that they didn't have enough money for a kingdom of their size and population.

For example; Leinster in Ireland was a, by your definition, 'rich' kingdom in the 700s. They had more flat monetary gain than near all of the other Irish kingdoms combined (as well as numerous foreign kingdoms). However, they also had a large population to deal with, and difficult to defend terrain. They couldn't afford to effectively defend themselves because they didn't have ENOUGH money to properly defend a population of their size. Compare to Connacht, which had a much smaller population and substantially less income; Connacht also has vastly easier to defend terrain, and it was cheaper to do so. Connacht managed to successfully defend itself far better than Leinster, despite making much less flat wealth. They didn't need to make as much.

England needed to be making much more money than it was to appropriately defend itself (the creation of the Danelaw alone proves they couldn't truly afford a defense, and probably explains why they gave up so much land; it wasn't monetarily sound to keep much of it). England was rich in the same way most corporate executives are; a great deal of assets, but little liquid substance, and, thus, little room to manuever. They'd be 'rich' only from a certain perspective; one that ignores how bloated they were and how much more money they needed to be making.

[Incongruous]

England needed to be making much more money than it was to appropriately defend itself (the creation of the Danelaw alone proves they couldn't truly afford a defense, and probably explains why they gave up so much land; it wasn't monetarily sound to keep much of it)

I'm just going to add a timeline in and some maps ok.

AD


899 - Death of King Alfred the Great of Wessex & All England. He is succeeded by his son, Edward.

901 - King Edward the Elder of Wessex takes the title "King of the Angles and Saxons". His mother, Dowager-Queen Ealhswith, founds the Nunnaminster at Winchester and retires into a religious life there. Death of King Aethelstan (alias Guthrum) of East Anglia. He is succeeded by his son, Eric.

902 - The Norsemen are expelled from Dublin. After a brief foray into Seisyllwg, a group, under one Ingimund, settle in the Wirral with the agreement of Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians.

905 - The Norse settler, Ingimund, and his men revolt against the Mercians and try to take the city of Chester. They are beaten off.

907 - Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians refortifies Chester against Viking attacks. King Edward the Elder of England founds Romsey Abbey. Ealdorman Aethelmar founds Cerne Abbey on the site of the hermitage of St. Edwold.

909 - Death of Bishop Asser of Sherborne. The See is divided and the new Bishoprics created at Wells, Crediton and Ramsbury & Sonning. King Edward the Elder of England and his sister, Princess Aethelflaed of Mercia, raid Danish East Anglia and bring back the body of St. Oswald in triumph. Aethelflaed presents it to her foundation in Gloucester.

910 - King Edward the Elder of England attacks the Joint-Kings Halfdan II, Eowils Ragnarson of Norse York. All three monarchs are killed at the Battle of Tettenhall and their kingdom crippled. Ragnall I Ivarrson, grandson of Ivarr the Boneless, seizes the throne after years of roaming the Western Seas.

911 - Death of Lord Aethelred II of the Mercians. He is buried in St. Oswald's Priory, Gloucester and is succeeded by his wife, Princess Aethelflaed of Wessex, as Lady of the Mercians. Her brother, King Edward the Elder of England insists on taking control of London and Oxford.

912 - The increasing thread of Viking invasions encourages Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians to expand her policy of building defensive burghs within her kingdom.

913 - King Edward the Elder of England recaptures Essex from the Danes. Death of High-Reeve Eadulf of Bamburgh. He is succeeded by his son, Ealdred I, who is almost immediately driven out by King Ragnall I Ivarrson of Norse York. Ealdred flees to the Court of King Constantine II of Alba.

914 - High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh persuades King Constantine II of Alba to invade Norse controlled Bernicia in an attempt to restore his position. The Vikings defeat the Scots at the First Battle of Corbridge. Other Vikings harry the Welsh Coast and move up the Severn. They capture Bishop Cyfeilliog of Ergyng, but are driven out by Mercian levies from Hereford and Gloucester.

c.915 - The body of St. Edmund of East Anglia is transferred to Bury St. Edmunds.

916 - English raiders attack the court of King Tewdr of Brycheiniog at Llangorse and make off with the Queen and thirty-three of her courtiers.

917 - Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians cements an alliance with Kings Constantine II of Alba and Constantine mac Aed of Strathclyde against Norse York. She captures the city of Derby, while her brother, King Edward the Elder of England, takes Towcester. Aethelflaed's armies also ravage Brycheiniog in revenge for the killing of the, now unknown, Abbot Ecgberht.

918 - Death of King Eric of East Anglia. East Anglia brought under Wessex rule. High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh again persuades King Constantine II of Alba to help him reclaim his position in Bernicia. They mount a second invasion of his now Norse controlled lands. The Vikings defeat the Scots again at the Second Battle of Corbridge, but take heavy casualties themselves. Ealdred probably manages to retake most of Northern Bernicia. Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians begins to intrigue with diaffected factions within the Norse Kingdom of York and peacefully overruns the Borough of Leicester. Her brother, King Edward the Elder of England, takes Stamford by force. King Idwal Foel of Gwynedd and King Hywel Dda and Prince Clydog of Deheubarth submit to the overlordship of King Edward. Death of Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians at Tamworth. She is buried in St. Oswald's Priory in Gloucester and nominally succeeded by her daughter, the twenty year old Princess Aelfwynn.

919 - Lady Aelfwynn of the Mercians is brought to the court of her maternal uncle, King Edward the Elder of England, and deprived of her authority in Mercia. King Edward formally annexes the country. The end of independent Mercian rule.

920 - High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh and his brother, Uhtred, submit to the overlordship of King Edward the Elder of England. Death of King Ragnall I Ivarrson of Norse York. He is succeeded by his brother, King Sigtrygg Caech of Norse Dublin.

924 - Death of King Edward the Elder of England at Farndon-upon-Dee. He is succeeded by his son, Athelstan, who becomes King of Wessex and effective ruler of most of England. His appointment is opposed by one Alfred of unknown origin.

c.924 - St. Eadburga, daughter of King Edward the Elder of England, enters the Nunnaminster at Winchester, at an extremely young age.

925 - King Athelstan is finally crowned at Kingston-on-Thames. He founds Bury St. Edmunds Abbey around the shrine of St. Edmund of East Anglia.

926 - Athelstan annexes Northumbria, and forces the kings of Wales, Strathclyde, the Picts, and the Scots to submit to him

927 - The border between England and Wales is set at the River Wye when Kings Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Owain of Glywysing & Gwent submit to the overlordship of King Athelstan of England at Hereford. Death of King Sigtrygg Caech of Norse York. King Athelstan of England claims his kingdom and receives the submission of High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh. Practicalities probably actually meant that ealdred looked more towards King Constantine II of Alba as his overlord.

930 - Death of High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh. He is succeeded by his son, Osulf. High-Reeve Osulf attests a number of Wessex charters during his reign showing his close association with the English Court.

931 - Kings Morgan Hen of Glywysing & Gwent, Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Idwal Foel of Gwynedd submit to the overlordship of King Athelstan of England and attend him at court.

933 - Prince Aelfweard, brother of King Athelstan of England, is drowned en route to France and buried at Saint-Bertin.

934 - King Tewdr of Brycheiniog attends the court of King Athelstan of England and signs English Land Charters. Kings Hywel Dda of Deheubarth, Idwal Foel of Gwynedd and Morgan Mwynfawr of Morgannwg are compelled to accompany Athelstan on his campaign against King Constantine II of Alba.

937 - Battle of Brunanburh: Athelstan defeats alliance of Scots, Strathclyde Britons and Vikings, and takes the title of "King of all Britain"

c.937 - King Idwal Foel of Gwynedd distances himself from his English overlord.

939 - King Athelstan founds Muchelney Abbey. Death of King Athelstan at Gloucester. He is buried at Malmesbury Abbey and succeeded by his half-brother, Edmund the Magnificent.

942 - Kings Idwal Foel of Gwynedd openly rebels against the overlordship of the English monarchy. Both he and Llewelyn of Powys are killed fighting English armies.

945 - St. Dunstan becomes Abbot of Glastonbury.

946 - Edred, younger brother of Edmund, King of England (to 955); Dunstan is named his chief minister.

949 - King Hywel Dda of Deheubarth, Gwynedd & Powys attends the court of King Eadred of England.

954 - Death of King Eric Bloodaxe of Norse York. King Eadred of Wessex becomes King of All England. High-Reeve Osulf of Bamburgh is appointed Ealdorman of Northumbria.

955 - Kings Iago of Gwynedd, Owain of Deheubarth and Morgan Hen of Glywysing & Gwent attend the court of King Eadred of England. Edwy, son of Edmund, King of England (to 959).

c.955 - Archbishop Oda of Canterbury rebuilds Canterbury Cathedral.

956 - St. Dunstan is sent into exile by King Edwy.

957 - Mercians and Northumbrians rebel against King Edwy.

959 - Edgar the Peaceable, younger brother of Edwy, King of England (to 975).

960 - Death of Princess Eadburga, aunt of King Edgar the Peaceable of England, at the Nunnaminster in Winchester where is as a nun. She is buried there and later revered as a saint.

961 - Tavistock Abbey is founded by Ealdorman Ordgar of Devon.

963 - Death of Ealdorman Osulf of Northumbria. He is succeeded by his son, Waltheof I. Death of Bishop Brihthelm of Winchester. He is succeeded by St. Aethelwold, Abbot of Abingdon.

964 - Foundation of Milton Abbey.

966 - Re-foundation of Peterborough (Medshamstead) Abbey as a Benedictine Monastery by Bishop Aethelwold of Winchester.

967 - Re- foundation of Romsey Abbey by King Edgar of England and Ealdorman Aethelwold of Wessex, with St. Merewenna as Abbess.

969 - Foundation of Ramsey Abbey.

970 - Re-foundation of Pershore Abbey. It acquires relics of St. Eadburga from Winchester.

971 - St. Aethelwold, Bishop of Winchester, instigates massive building operations at Winchester. He extends the Old Minster westward with two enormous apses and a crossing tower to cover St. Swithun's external tomb and make it the centre of a 'shrine-church'. It supposedly rains there for "forty days and forty nights". Foundation of Crowland Abbey.

973 - After his coronation, King Edgar of England marches his army north to Chester. His navy meets him there via the Irish Sea. This show of strength persuades the Northern Kings to submit to his overlordship. Legend says he is rowed across the Dee by Kings Kenneth of Alba, Malcolm of the Cumbrians, Magnus of Man & the Isles, Donald of Strathclyde, Iago of Gwynedd, Princes Hywel of Gwynedd, Ithel and Siferth (the latter two of unknown origin). The Council of Winchester calls for English monastic reform and draws up a code of practice known as the Regularis Concordia. Foundation of Thorney Abbey.

974 - King Edgar gives English help to Prince Hywel in ousting his uncle, King Iago of Gwynedd from his kingdom. The tomb of St. Swithun is opened at Winchester Old Minster and his body dismembered. His head shrine is placed in the sacristy and his major shrine behind the high altar.

975 - Edward the Martyr, son of Edgar, King of England (to 978).

c.977 - St. Aethelwold, Bishop of Winchester, rebuilds the western end of Winchester Old Minster, with twin towers and no apses.

978 - Edward the Martyr murdered at Corfe Castle upon the orders of his step-mother; Aethelred II, the Unready (ill-counselled), younger brother of Edward the Martyr, King of England (to 1016). English troops are deployed on the Lleyn Peninsula on behalf of King Hywel of Gwynedd in order to prevent his uncle, Iago, invading with Viking allies from Dublin. St. Dunstan completes the cloisteral buildings and his western extensions to the Abbey Church of St. Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury. The church is rededicated to St. Peter, St. Paul and St. Augustine.

980 - The Danes renew their raids on England attacking Chester and Southampton. Manx Vikings led by King Godfred I ally themselves with Prince Custennin of Gwynedd and raid Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula. Custennin is killed. Foundation of Amesbury Abbey.

983 - Ealdorman Aelfhere of Mercia allies himself with King Hywel of Gwynedd and together they attack the lands of Prince Einion of Deheubarth.

984 - Death of Bishop Aethelwold of Winchester. He is buried in Winchester Old Minster and later revered as a saint.

985 - The English kill King Hywel of Gwynedd by treachery.

987 - Re-foundation of Cerne Abbey.

c.988 - Manx Vikings, under King Godfred I, ravage Anglesey.

991 - Battle of Maldon: Byrhtnoth of Essex is defeated by Danish invaders; Aethelred II buys off the Danes with 10,000 pounds of silver (Danegeld).

992 - Aethelred makes a truce with Duke Richard I of Normandy.

993 - King Aethelred the Unready appoints Aelfhelm as Ealdorman of Northumbria in place of the aging Waltheof I. Re-foundation of Sherborne Abbey.

994 - Danes under Sweyn and Norwegians under Olaf Trygvesson sail up river Thames and besiege London; bought off by Aethelred.

995 - Uhtred, son of Ealdorman Waltheof I of Northumbria, establishes an episcopal see at Durham and moves the monastic community of Chester-Le-Street there. Foundation of Evesham Abbey.

c.1000 - Medshamstead is made into a Burgh. It soon becomes known as St. Peter's Burgh (Peterborough).

1003 - Sweyn and an army of Norsemen land in England and wreak a terrible vengeance.

1006 - Ealdorman Aelfhelm of Northumbria falls foul of King Aethelred the Unready who has him murdered.

1007 - Aethelred buys two years' peace from the Danes for 36,000 pounds of silver. Uhtred, son of Ealdorman Waltheof I of Northumbria, is appointed to his father's old position.

1011 - Thorkell the Tall and his brother, Hemming, plunder Canterbury, burn the city and the Cathedral, and make off with Archbishop Alphege to Greenwich. St. Alphage refuses to be ransomed and the Vikings throw ox-bones at him in a drunken orgee and kill him.

1012 - The Danes sack Canterbury: bought off for 48,000 pounds of silver.

1013 - King Sweyn Forkbeard of Denmark lands in England and is proclaimed king; Aethelred II the Unready flees to Normandy.

c.1013 - Archbishop Lyfing probably restores Canterbury Cathedral, adding porticus towers and a massive 'westwerk'.

1014 - The English recall Aethelred II the Unready as King on the death of King Sweyn Forkbeard; the latter's son, Canute (II), retreats to Denmark and turns his attention to annexing Norway.

1015 - King Canute II of Denmark & Norway again invades England; war between Danes and Saxons.

1016 - Edmund Ironside, son of Aethelred II the Unready of England, becomes King. He and King Canute II of Denmark & Norway meet on the Isle of Alney near Deerhurst and agree to divide the kingdom: Canute holds the north and Edmund Wessex; Edmund is assassinated; Canute takes the throne as King Canute the Great of England.

1017 - King Canute the Great divides England into four earldoms.

1019 - King Canute the Great marries the Dowager-Queen Emma, widow of Aethelred II. Canute gives the relics of St. Wigstan to Evesham Abbey. They are translated from Repton.

1026 - King Canute the Great's steward, Orc, founds Abbotsbury Abbey.

1035 - Death of Canute the Great of England, Denmark & Norway: his possessions are divided; Harold I Harefoot, becomes King of England (to 1040).

1040 - Hardicanute, King of England (to 1042); he dies of drink.

1042 - Edward the Confessor, son of Aethelred II, King of England (to 1066).

1046 - Sweyn, son of Earl Godwin of Wessex, attempts to marry Abbess Eadgifu of Leominster.

c.1050 - Abbot Wulfric of St. Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury embarks on a flamboyant programme of building-work at his abbey. He adds a further western chapel and bell-tower to the monastic complex and begins to join St. Mary's to the Abbey Church with a huge rotunda based on that at St. Benigne at Dijon.

1051 - Earl Godwin exiled (until 1052): he returns with a fleet and wins back his power.

1052 - Edward the Confessor founds Westminster Abbey, near London.

1053 - Death of Godwin: his son Harold succeeds him as Earl of Wessex. Earl Harold of Wessex begins a programme of building work at Waltham Abbey which includes the addition of a huge eastern crossing.

1055 - Harold's brother Tostig becomes Earl of Northumbria.

1058 - The See of Sherborne is joined to that of Ramsbury & Sonning.

1063 - Harold and Tostig subdue Wales.

1064 - Harold is shipwrecked in Normandy; while there, he swears a solemn oath to support William of Normandy's claim to England.

1065 - Northumbria rebels against Tostig, who is exiled


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/submap900.jpg


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/mapAlfred.jpg


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/mapAthelstan.jpg

So we are going to give the Englisc something other than knights?

[skeletor]

Bopa, you must allso remember the great expences they had with the standing army of the Fyrd. About 60 000 (I think, not sure) men is a great expence compared to the vikings who often fought on their own initiative, seeking loot and randsomes. Allso, being in a defencive position is mutch more expencive then beeing on the offence.

This doesn't make them poor, but their expences, compared to their rivals mutch higher.

I'm don't actually care what we call their cavalery, but i vote for using their native names. Im happy as long as they get some heavy hardpunching cavalery later in their campaign.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

shouldn't we have brothel in the tech tree..? maybe not for reqruiting spy but rather an unique unit or something... (ie. danish horebukk)

[skeletor]

LOL, this is insane...

Have you seen how many Viking units there are?

javelinmen, bondi, militia bowmen, bowmen, militia archers, viking archers, birkebeiner archers, crossbowmen, spear militia, viking spearmen, geirrmen, militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry, raider cavalry, viking cavalry, danish knights, landsmenn, karls, gestr, viking huskarls, birkebeiners, jarl's hird, joms vikings, royal hird, ballista, mangonel.

Thats 25 unit's..

I'll say we cut:

bowmen + milita bowmen = bowmen (hunters)

bondi + spearmilitia = bondi

Royal hird + viking huskarls = viking huskarls

viking cavalry + raider cavalry + militia swordscavalry = raider cavalry
--------------

That leavs 20 unit's, more then most vanilla factions

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

but won't these be spread over four factions? if maybe 15 is shared, there is 3-4 uniques per faction.

[Incongruous]

Yeah, this is a disproportionate amount of units dudes.
Definatley need to revamp the list methinks.

[GoreBag]

25 units for four factions doesn't seem like too many to me.

[Incongruous]

No but most of those units are going to be shared by those factions.

[Ranika]

Maybe 25 units then for each of the 'cultures' then? Not the technical in game cultures, but things like 'Gaels' and 'Norse' and such, just to give an idea of where to put said units; considering there are a lot more homogenized, similar cultures in this mod than in vanilla Rome, so it'd be easier to share more unit models, so model space shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[ScionTheWorm]

Actually I wonder what cultures we'll have? I would think
Barbarian = Norse (nordmannaland, danmark, sveariket,rus)
Roman = Catholic (can we only assign 3 + 1 factions to this?). Because of restrictions, catholics would be HRE, French, Loth, Papals, Normandie, Asturia, Welsh and Saxons? Or should welsh be gaelic and saxons norse maybe?
Eastern = Steppe (Bulgars, magyar, Khazar(?))
Greek = Greek (Byzantine)
Carthagian = Muslim (abbasid, al andalus)
And if this is an own culture:
Ptolemaic = Gaelic - if not, gaelic has to be norse or catholic. (alba, eire)

When it comes to BI, I doubt there will be more cultures than this but I've got no clue.

I think around 15 units per faction would be decent (15*20 = 300), allthough this is a hell of a lot of work for two skinners/modellers. So approximatly this could be the case:

Norse: 15-20 shared units (ok I agree this is a lot, but we do focus on vikings), maybe 2-3 uniques
Catholic: 10-15 shared?
Steppe: Should have around 15 shared I think
Greek: lots of zor, counting around 20
Muslim: should be 10-15 shared
Gaelic: I think 10-15 shared

Oh by the way, when I say shared I mean on model and stat basis, not skins. I may have misunderstood.

[skeletor]

Most of the unit's i have mentioned is lesser unit's for all factions. I fou see the techtree, all unit's, with ekcept birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight, are used for all factions. Rus is not mentioned, but with the scandinavian ones it's 75 unit's. With rus, it will be 100 unit's.
Legio have only specified birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight as zor or factionspecific unit's.

Allso the fact that vikings, who didn't use cavalery in battle have 5 difrent units is a bit silly. All their cavalery is supposed to be rather weak. So having 4 difrent types of poor cavalery is a bi too mutch. Having some very light spearcavalery, and then you get the bether viking cavalery (raider cavalery) .
Then the danes get their knights as the latest one.

Allso having a militia archer, then archer, thats two allmost identical unit's.
I'd say they can get the regular archer as the first base archer, then get vikingarchers, and at the en the crossbowmen + the birkebeiner in the zor system.

Bondis were usually spear militia, so thats the same as making 2 diffrent unit's of the same kind. I personally never use the Roman townwatch unit, unless i restrict myself from using peasants as garison in roman campaigns. So having only one "crappy on the battlefield, but good for garison" i'd say is enough.

Keaping all these unit's for all factions will probably mean AI large stack of militiaunit's, instead of apropriate viking armys.

Ofcourse, if alot of these unit's are for only one or some of the viking factions, its reasonable. But then i wold like to know witch..


Any other thoughts on this, or what do you think of my cutting?

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

when it's like this (75 and 100 units!), I think your cutting might be for the best, I totally agree with the cavalry.

Btw, I remember I saw some excellent skins for Geirmen at the NTW forum...

[skeletor]

[QUOTE=ScionTheWorm]Actually I wonder what cultures we'll have? I would think
Barbarian = Norse (nordmannaland, danmark, sveariket,rus)
Roman = Catholic (can we only assign 3 + 1 factions to this?). Because of restrictions, catholics would be HRE, French, Loth, Papals, Normandie, Asturia, Welsh and Saxons? Or should welsh be gaelic and saxons norse maybe?
Eastern = Steppe (Bulgars, magyar, Khazar(?))
Greek = Greek (Byzantine)
Carthagian = Muslim (abbasid, al andalus)
And if this is an own culture:
Ptolemaic = Gaelic - if not, gaelic has to be norse or catholic. (alba, eire)QUOTE]

Here we must probably see what BI will look like, we might be more free there.
But if we uses the RTW faction's, we must see who is most unique.

in RTW there are 6 barbarian, 3 eastern, 1 egyptian, 4 greek, and 3(4) roman, 2 african, and 1 egyptian(if these are not 3 african?, but i think egypt its unique)

So using 4 greeks for the 4 vikings makes sence. (Norse religion)

Allso using the 6 barbarians as Normandie, Asturia, Welsh, Saxons, Scots, Eire wold be best. I know there are alot of diffrence in these factions, but their all (semi)christians, And can use the same building models.

Using the 3 roman slots as the uber christian Frankish factions including the senate as papal state, reflects the breakup of the huge Frankish empire.

We have 3 eastern, and that works fine for the 3 steppefactions. (we might get religous problems here.)

The one egyptian faction should be used for byzantium, as the most unique faction.

Then the 2 last slot's goes to abbasid, and al-andalus with commun muslim religion, and arabicstyle buildings. (If their not bound to share buildings with Byzantium, thats a problem.)

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

Did you guys know that there will be two tech-trees for each faction?
One is Christian the other Pagan, wow, this is a cool feature, we could use it.

[ScionTheWorm]

oooh nice.. we should indeed use it

[GoreBag]

I don't think lumping the Gaels in with the Normans is a good idea.

[skeletor]

Probably not... Their culture is probably more similar to the vikings on the startdate.

-Skel-

[skeletor]

when it's like this (75 and 100 units!), I think your cutting might be for the best, I totally agree with the cavalry.

Btw, I remember I saw some excellent skins for Geirmen at the NTW forum...

Oki, alot of the lesser unit's will look very similar for the diffrent viking factions. But i'm not really sure if i should make colored serks(RTW romans), or only make diffrent small parts (shield, belts, patterns on clothing) colored so that you can see the diffrence in battle- Any ideas?

I want them to look pretty mutch the same with just parts colored.

Anyway, did you mean this geirman?



I haven't modelled this, only skinned, so the noseguard is only panted on the nose.

I will probably use some of this on the finished geirr man, but he needs some more work.

-Skel-

[Ranika]

If there's any culture the Gaels can be compared to in the period, it's definitely the vikings; one of the reasons vikings in Ireland integrated so well is largely because of large cultural similarities; foremost being warrior cultures; every culture had warrior castes, and could be argued as 'warrior cultures', but few were so prone to romanticize the warrior class. Further, they were similar in structure of their towns to an extent, and it's actually sometimes hard to say what the Gaelic-Irish/Scots adopted and what the Norse-Irish/Scots adopted, considering so much of what was already present in their cultures existed; a good example is the ridire on foot; Gaelic ridire existed for centuries before the vikings invaded, but are actually very similar to huskarls, or numerous types of weapons that had similar shapes and designs that had been prevalent for decades, if not centuries. That isn't to say they're culturally identical by any stretch; the differences are huge. However, certain aspects, including important philosophical aspects (such as the importance of the warrior class) are similar; more similar than they'd be to others.

[Krusader]

About religious buildings:

Instead of giving the Christian factions one religious building, why not 3 or 4?
Although Christianity only has 1 God, the Churches were dedicated to saints and passages from the Bible (although mostly in the High medieval age, by my sources). Maybe something to consider? Like a Church to St.George, which gives Morale bonus, as he was a soldier in his 'mortal life'. Others could be a Church to the Virgin Mary which could give other bonuses.

One thing I personally enjoy in R:TW is the different temples to choose from, and to decide what effects I want in this and that city.

And about Muslim mosques. If you go for 5-level mosques here's an idea:
Minaret -> Mosque (arabic Masjid) -> Large Mosque -> Alijama (or Grand Mosque) -> Legendary Alijama

Muslims should have access to public baths as well as they became widely popular.

If you want, I could write up religious buildings types, descriptions and bonuses for you!

[skeletor]

Thats a great idea Krusader, the diffrent chappels and monasterys could be dedicated to diffrent saints. If your a frankish faction, building monasterys to St. John, or St. Stephen, you could sommun Knight Hospitallers..

There are plenty of diffrent saints to choose from, and it gives the game a more religous aspect.

You could allso do the same with the muslims, and their diffrent imams, like Ali aso.

Same goes for the Norse, they could have "hovs" for diffrent gods giving diffrent abilitys.

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

Like a Church to St.George, which gives Morale bonus, as he was a soldier in his 'mortal life'.

You mean "dragon slayer", right? In any case, that's a really good idea.

[Krusader]

You mean "dragon slayer", right? In any case, that's a really good idea.

He seems to have been a Roman soldier in the service of Emperor Diocletian who ordered Christianity persecuted. When he refused, and told the Emperor he was Christian himself, he was tortured and then executed.

And he's also the dragon slayer, which secular historians say is a pre-Christian tale, which was adapted to Christianity.

All this comes from my head, so I'll try to find some sources.

[Steppe Merc]

I know the Rus associated many Christian saints with their pagan gods. The Byzantines also had "military saints", sometimes painting their shields with a particular saint.

[Steppe Merc]

There should be an Alan unit, as they still were kicking around pretty strongly at this time. I think they were Christian. Also, the Khazars recruited many Muslim mercanaries from Khawarzim.

Magyars, Bulgars and possibely Khazars should be able to recruit Slavic infantry as auxalries.
What time does the game start? The Pechnegs could be included, though I think they're too late...

[Meneldil]

The Pecheneg are a rebelious faction I think.
I think the Rus also hired some slavs in their armies too, but I might be wrong on this.

[Incongruous]

Yes there should be Slavic units but only as an AOR.

[Krusader]

Muslims:

A muslim market is called medina

Muslims have madrasas which are Islamic schools. Some ideas for Abbasid & Al-Andalus tech trees.

[Devercia]

just some random ideas( i dont know if they are already here, as i am just passing by)


I like the idea of plenty of low level militia types, recrutable with little to no buildings

poachers: would replace the "militia archers" most people are refuring to. unskilled in archery, but can hide in grass. fast
"in exchange for pardon and licence to hunt, poachers are recruted to serve as ambushers and light archers"


peasant levies: like peasasnts but a little more combat effectiveness(just replace them with these)


I would like to see low base farming levels, and increased building time, lower exspence of farming buildings.(the saxons were known for crop rotation)