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  1. #1
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Tech trees

    Here's the Franksih army list I posted for Fury of the Northmen MTW mod. I thought it could be helpful :

    Comes: Comes were part of the higher Frankish nobility, they were the king’s most important vassals. What distinguished them from the other members of the nobility was that they had their own vassals, loyal to them personally. When a Comes was granted land by the King, his part of the deal was that he would bring a certain number of knights to the battlefield when summoned. They were often used as the king’s elite bodyguards, or were asked to lead batailles (battlefield divisions) during important battles.

    Units of 15 men
    Armed with spears
    Armoured
    Irresistible charge
    High moral
    Impetuous
    May charge without orders

    Milites: Milites are the backbones of Frankish armies. They are fearsome warriors, and as cavalrymen, their skills are only matched by the Katraphraktoi and by the Normans knights.
    Like many other knights, their arrogance might sometimes be a problem, and might aswell lead them in dangerous situations.

    Unit of 40 men
    Elite unit
    Armed with spears
    Armoured
    Large shield
    Irresistible charge
    High moral
    Impetuous
    May charge without orders
    May dismount before battle

    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19258

    Milites pedites: While they mostly fight as heavy cavalry, Milites are sometimes dismounted and used as heavy infantry. Though they may not be as effective as mounted Milites, they are a very effective heavy infantry. Protected by heavy armours and large shields, and armed with swords and axes, they are probably the best infantry a Frankish king could lead to the battle.

    Unit of 40 men
    Bonus vs. armoured troops
    Elite unit
    Armoured
    Large shield
    High moral
    Impetuous
    May charge without orders
    Slow

    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19257

    Pueri: Pueri are light cavalry, mostly used to scout out the enemy positions and troop strengths, as well as to take care of skirmishers and light infantry. Unlike milites, pueri aren’t part of the high nobility, but rather poor knights or squires.

    Unit of 40 men
    Powerful charge
    Armed with throwing spears
    Missiles effective against armour
    Fast

    Liberi: Liberi are lesser warriors. Though they can stand a fight against more professional warriors, they are mainly used to make the number, and to support the heavy Frankish cavalry during long fights (which was unlikely to happen, since the Milites’ charge was often enough to break the enemy). Liberi usually use spears and shields or bows.

    Liberi (spearmen):
    Unit of 100 men
    Powerful charge
    Armed with spears
    Large shield
    Weak attack
    Weak defence
    Effective against cavalry
    Can fight on 2 ranks

    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19256

    Liberi (archers):
    Unit of 66 men
    Good attack
    Weak defence
    Poor moral

    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19255

    Coloni: Coloni are nothing else than quickly-trained peasants. They are not really good at fighting, but they can form a cheap and useful militia in times of need.

    Same thing as peasants from MTW

    Here are some Normans, Britons and Flemish special units:

    Norman Milites: Norman knights are probably the finest cavalry of the era. They learnt how to use lance when fighting as mercenaries for the Byzantines, but unlike Byzantine cavalry who used to charge at a brisk trot, Normans usually enter the fight at the highest speed possible, wreaking havoc in their enemy’s ranks, which usually lead to a quick victory.

    Unit of 40 men
    Armed with spears
    Irresistible charge
    High moral
    Elite unit
    Large shield
    Heavily armoured
    Impetuous
    May charge without orders

    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19259

    PS: The use of the cavalry lance + high speed charge was probably not used before the mid/late 10th century, so I don’t know if they should have the irresistible charge. It’s up to you, though I think it would make Norman knights a nice unit.

    Norman infantry (I have no idea if this unit is totally correct, but I know that while Franks were sometimes warring with cavalry armies only, Normans were rather using both infantry and cavalry, so I think it might be a good idea): Unlike franks who were mostly relying on their heavy cavalry and on their archers, Normans used both infantry and cavalry to win battles. Norman, having blood from both Vikings and franks, can form a superb infantry, a good combination of Frankish warfare and Vikings warlike.

    Unit of 100 men
    Armoured
    Strong charge
    High moral
    Elite unit
    Large shield
    Impetuous
    May charge without orders
    Bonus vs. armoured troops

    Devroet: Devroet means literally Breton exile. Whereas Brittany wasn’t actually a part of the Frankish empire, Britons were often used in both Normans and Frankish armies. They are famous for their horsemanship and are used as an effective medium cavalry, used to support heavier cavalry or infantry, or to rout enemy skirmishers or light infantry.

    Unit of 40 men
    Armed with spears and javelins
    Very strong charge
    Missiles effective vs. armoured troops
    Good moral

    Flemish spearmen: The county of Flanders is nominally a part of the Western Frank Empire. In fact, the county was often warring against the French king, and quickly became a semi-independent province. To protect Flanders from attacks from both Normans and Frankish armies, Flemish lords had to train professional warriors, which could defend themselves against the heavy cavalry they often had to fight. Those warriors were also often hired as mercenaries in west Europe.

    Unit of 100 men
    Armed with spears
    Large shields
    Very effective against cavalry
    Powerful charge
    Good moral
    Good defence

    Stipendarii: Mercenary knights are often recruited from all over north-west Europe, as well as Spain and Italy. Stipendarii is the name of those mercenary groups, often composed of fallen knights, fighting sometimes for glory, and often for money. These skilled warriors spend their time fighting for wealthy lords and kings and are a good and reliable cavalry, as well as an effective medium infantry.

    Mounted stipendarii:
    Unit of 60 men
    Armed with spears
    Fast
    Powerful charge
    Bonus versus armoured troop
    Poor moral

    Stipendarii pedites:
    Unit of 60 men
    Good attack
    Bonus versus armoured troops
    Poor moral

    A pic that could be used for Stipendarii, though it's supposed to be a spanish mercenary knight from the XIIIth century :
    http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19463

    Italian crossbowmen: Italian crossbowmen are considered as the best long range infantry a Christian lord could hire. Crossbow is a fearsome weapon that can easily kill a man in a single shot, and unlike long and composite bows, it can be used effectively after a few days of training. One thing is certain; mercenaries from Italia are famous for their use of the crossbow.

    Unit of 60 men
    Good attack
    Long range
    Weak defence
    Slow rate of fire
    Slow
    Bonus vs. armoured troop
    Poor moral

  2. #2
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Tech trees

    Wow, that's great! I now noticed I've missed a lot of the info in this thread. I'll take a look at the last few pages and update the tech trees with the new info in the coming days (I'm working on the map at the same time so it might take some time, but hopefully not too long).
    Under construction...

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  3. #3
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Tech trees

    Frankish tech trees under construction ATM. Magyar tech tree needs some more research before it can be completed.
    Under construction...

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  4. #4
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Tech trees

    There's also a tehc tree for a blatic faction (in case we can add one with BI), for a Finno Ugrian faction (Hame I think), and possibly for the Rus and British isles factions.


    Here's someting I found out on the net :

    http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/byzantium.asp

    Early Byzantines 527-660 AD:
    including the armies of Justinian and Heraclius
    Germanic Kingdoms 442-800AD:
    including the armies of the Ostrogoths and Lombards
    Sassanid Persians 226-649 AD:
    including armies for the early and later Sassanid period
    Steppe Nomads 558-1200 AD:
    including the armies of the Magyars and Penchenegs
    Thematic Byzantines 660- 1042AD:
    including the armies of the Isaurian and Macedonian dynasties
    Bulgars and Slavs 643- 1018 AD:
    including the armies of the early and later Bulgars
    Early Caliphates 632- 1073 AD:
    including the armies of the Arab Conquest and Abbasids
    The Rus 750-1250 AD:
    including the armies of the Early Pagan and Great Rus
    Later Byzantines1042-1185 AD:
    including the armies of the Komnenian dynasty


    http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/elcid.asp

    Armies of Christian Spain : The Early Christian Kingdoms. the Age of El Cid and the Reconquista.
    Armies of Al-Andalus : The Caliphate of Cordoba. the Taifa Kings and the Later Taifas. Armies of the African Invaders – The Almoravids and the Almohads.
    Aliados y Mercenaries – Allies and Mercenaries available for hire to complement your armies.


    As these books have info on roughly the factions were looking for, I thought it would be nice to get one (furthermore, I made the frankish/norman army list with another WAB publication : Shieldwall)


    The link to ShieldWall doesn't work anymore, but the book has army list for the saxons, the vikings, the franks/normans, the welsh, the irish and the scot.
    Last edited by Meneldil; 08-21-2005 at 10:23.

  5. #5
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Tech trees

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil
    There's also a tehc tree for a blatic faction (in case we can add one with BI), for a Finno Ugrian faction (Hame I think), and possibly for the Rus and British isles factions.


    Here's someting I found out on the net :

    http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/byzantium.asp

    Early Byzantines 527-660 AD:
    including the armies of Justinian and Heraclius
    Germanic Kingdoms 442-800AD:
    including the armies of the Ostrogoths and Lombards
    Sassanid Persians 226-649 AD:
    including armies for the early and later Sassanid period
    Steppe Nomads 558-1200 AD:
    including the armies of the Magyars and Penchenegs
    Thematic Byzantines 660- 1042AD:
    including the armies of the Isaurian and Macedonian dynasties
    Bulgars and Slavs 643- 1018 AD:
    including the armies of the early and later Bulgars
    Early Caliphates 632- 1073 AD:
    including the armies of the Arab Conquest and Abbasids
    The Rus 750-1250 AD:
    including the armies of the Early Pagan and Great Rus
    Later Byzantines1042-1185 AD:
    including the armies of the Komnenian dynasty


    http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/elcid.asp

    Armies of Christian Spain : The Early Christian Kingdoms. the Age of El Cid and the Reconquista.
    Armies of Al-Andalus : The Caliphate of Cordoba. the Taifa Kings and the Later Taifas. Armies of the African Invaders – The Almoravids and the Almohads.
    Aliados y Mercenaries – Allies and Mercenaries available for hire to complement your armies.


    As these books have info on roughly the factions were looking for, I thought it would be nice to get one (furthermore, I made the frankish/norman army list with another WAB publication : Shieldwall)


    The link to ShieldWall doesn't work anymore, but the book has army list for the saxons, the vikings, the franks/normans, the welsh, the irish and the scot.
    Ok, might be interesting. As for ShieldWall link going down, the saxons, vikings, welsh, irish and scots are the tech trees that are already complete, so it was no loss . It's mostly the other factions that require more work. Those marked in red in the first post are already complete...
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 08-21-2005 at 16:19.
    Under construction...

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  6. #6
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Tech trees

    NEW FRENCH AND NORMAN TECH TREE SUGGESTIONS:

    France, HRE and Lotharingia
    =====================
    - Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
    - Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
    - Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
    - Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
    - Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
    - Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
    - Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
    - Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
    - Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
    - Academy, University
    - Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

    - Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (urban militia [HRE only], coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (urban guard [HRE only], +10% law)
    - Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [france and lotharingia only, ZOR: southeast france and northern Italy]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen)
    - Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
    - Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
    - Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], knights hospitaller [3 turns training, ZOR Jerusalem only, therefore very hard to get])
    - Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
    - Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (milites pedites axe [heavy armor, axes, low discipline], milites pedites sword [heavy armor, swords, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
    - Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
    - Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)

    Normans
    =======
    - Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
    - Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
    - Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
    - Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
    - Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
    - Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
    - Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
    - Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
    - Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
    - Academy, University
    - Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

    - Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
    - Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
    - Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
    - Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
    - Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], norman milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline, ZOR: Northern France])
    - Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
    - Weaponsmith (landsmenn [axe, 0 turns training, more viking-like look, levies]), Weaponsmith's workshop (norman infantry [axe, medium armor, large drop-shield, good morale, fairly professional], breton infantry [light, fast, excellent morale, axe, primary weapon are javelins {very little ammo though}, can skirmish, ZOR: northern france]), Weaponsmith's guild (norman pedites [heavy armor, axes, drop-shield, good morale, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
    - Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
    - Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)

    MERCENARIES:
    ===========
    - stipendarii [medium to heavy cavalry, comparable to level 3 cavalry, but with lower morale, quite expensive, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
    - stipendarii pedites [medium to heavy footmen, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
    - flemish spearmen [medium spearmen, large shields, very good anti-cav bonus, good morale, good defense, ZOR: Flanders]
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tech trees

    No knights of the hospital until 1113 though.

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