Faction symbols and banners

[Rodion Romanovich]

Attempts at Khazar faction symbol: -- REMOVED --
Which one is better? I personally prefer the one to the left. Also, the background color might be bad. If you think so, please tell me a better RGB value for background.

[ScionTheWorm]

Nice. The one to the left yes. A little less saturation and a little darker background in my opinion. It seems to me like the lower tip of the star is skewed a little to the right.

[Rodion Romanovich]

New one:

The star is still skewed, I'll redo it later, this is just for example of the new color choice.

[skeletor]

Great, i really like that, the colorbalance is wonderfull. If this is the finished symbol, could you give it a bit of highlight opposite to the shadow? (filter - render - lightening effects)

That would be really nice. I'll start working a bit on the Khazar skins aside from the vikings (needs some variation), and the color you used is very mutch what i have imagened. Can you pls send me the RGB values ?

(The banner will be completely redone :)

EDIT: I think you should leave the star as it is. Gives some charm having it a tiny bit asymetrical

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Great, i really like that, the colorbalance is wonderfull. If this is the finished symbol, could you give it a bit of highlight opposite to the shadow? (filter - render - lightening effects)

I tried using the lightning effects filter now, but it ended up looking strange. Is it totally unacceptable to have it the way it is, becuase it's hard to get the color right when using the filter. It makes the unlit areas darker, which means it's almost impossible to predict what color most of the symbol, in the middle, will get.

That would be really nice. I'll start working a bit on the Khazar skins aside from the vikings (needs some variation), and the color you used is very mutch what i have imagened. Can you pls send me the RGB values ?

RGB: 166, 124, 77

(The banner will be completely redone :)

I think the one you already did is cool. Is it possible to have different banners for different units? If so, I think it would be cool if at least some royal units kept the cool colored-glass banner even if you make a new one for the other troops.

EDIT: I think you should leave the star as it is. Gives some charm having it a tiny bit asymetrical

-Skel-

Ok

[skeletor]

I tried using the lightning effects filter now, but it ended up looking strange. Is it totally unacceptable to have it the way it is, becuase it's hard to get the color right when using the filter. It makes the unlit areas darker, which means it's almost impossible to predict what color most of the symbol, in the middle, will get.

If you work in layers, you can apply the filter only to the orange part, so that it won't affect the symbol. Allso keap the opasity low.

RGB: 166, 124, 77

thnx

I think the one you already did is cool. Is it possible to have different banners for different units? If so, I think it would be cool if at least some royal units kept the cool colored-glass banner even if you make a new one for the other troops.

I'm not sure, but it might be possible (eaglestandards for rome). Otherwise you have the general banner, unit banner, standard with banner. I will probably keep the star with the glass.. I haven't looked at the banners modells yet, but it might be possible to make more historical flags, instead of banners ect.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok I found out I could achieve a lighter upper left corner without getting the color in the middle changed by using the dodge tool. I think it worked well, I'll upload the new symbol so you can have a look at it. Unfortunately it seems like there are some server problems with photobucket where I've hosted previously. If the server won't come back up today I'll register an account elsewhere for image hosting.

[Ranika]

For the Irish, I recommend the gold harp on a blue field; it's not totally accurate, but more accurate than any of the 'regional' flags (like the flag of Leinster; harp on a green field). Alternatively, the symbol of an upright spear with three coiled serpents below it could be used (such imagery was common in Ireland). There's also the symbol of a broken sword, spear, and shield beneath the Symbol of the Holy Trinity (three interwoven ovoid shapes, very common even today); this was very popular as a 'holy symbol', representing Christian Ireland defeating pagan invaders (this was a very common piece of symbolism that only grew more prevalent due to viking invasions, even after the invaders became Christians). In any event, you can't go wrong with Celtic Christian imagery; Ireland was the center of the Celtic Church, and they made a very big point of it in their banners and other war paraphanelia. More over, the Irish were constantly subject to changing borders, fickle loyalties between Gaelic tribes and Norse subjects, etc. The Celtic rite offered the only permanent, stable situation many Irish in the warring regions really ever knew, and, so, offered much of the only permanent symbolism. As an aside; I should note that the church in Ireland was not seperate from the Roman Church. Any doctrinal differences are purely myth from the Tudor period (to excuse setting up an Irish version of the Anglican Church). However, isolated from Rome, the Irish (like many other Catholics in isolated regions) diverged ritually; enough that they did take quite an amount of pride that their traditions and rituals originated in Ireland. However, the idea of a 'Celtic' church is still reasonable to state, considering no direct papal contact to Ireland occured from St. Palladius's mission to the 12th century; all relations went to the bishops in Britain and then to Ireland, and even from the 12th century on, it was usually sent through the communications of the various Templar chapter houses (the Knights of the Green Cross in Ireland had been absorbed as a subset of the Templar by this time).

[ScionTheWorm]

This is more a matter of taste and style, but I think we should make the faction icons more "ancient", like having some cracks in them, roughing them up a bit. We could make a ps-layer that can be placed over all the icons when they are finished, making it a overlay or hard light layer.

[skeletor]

Ok I found out I could achieve a lighter upper left corner without getting the color in the middle changed by using the dodge tool. I think it worked well, I'll upload the new symbol so you can have a look at it. Unfortunately it seems like there are some server problems with photobucket where I've hosted previously. If the server won't come back up today I'll register an account elsewhere for image hosting.

Cant wait
I use Imageshack.us

This is more a matter of taste and style, but I think we should make the faction icons more "ancient", like having some cracks in them, roughing them up a bit. We could make a ps-layer that can be placed over all the icons when they are finished, making it a overlay or hard light layer.

Ditto!

I allso think that wenever there is an eaven choice between symbols, we should use the most religous one. This is the fanatics mod, and that should allso be reflectet ingame.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some news on Khazar standard I found when searching for Khazar units info: the command had a standard consisting of a silvery mirror on a long pole, according to contemporary Arab records. Don't know if this info is useful...

[ScionTheWorm]

I request a irish banner and faction symbol, same for scots (except banner)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, I'll make an Irish one with the harp or broken sword, and a scottish one if I can find a better eagle.

[Rodion Romanovich]

New Khazar faction symbol:


Old one reposted for comparison:


I'll post another one with added cracks etc. soon.

[skeletor]

Looks bether, more "allive"... Filter - texture - texturize - [sandstone with relief and scaling on allmost lowest] might work to give theold look. If you can't do the cracs, send a sample to me, or scion, and we fix.

You can then use the "crack" layer for all..

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

All faction symbols I've made so far (some edited with the new 3d-look and new frames etc.):


Upper row from left to right: Scots, Irish, Khazar, Norway
Bottom row from left to right: Rebels, Saxons, Sweden, Welsh

Please give comments for how I can improve these. I'm personally not pleased with all the symbols, only the Scottish and Khazar symbol feels good enough so far IMO. Saxons and welsh are good IMO, but saxons should perhaps get a slightly different color. Also I'm considering to change the color of the scottish background as there are already so many blue symbols.

I can't fix the crack layer you want. If I make a new layer photoshop just says I can't apply the filter texturize because the layer is empty. Only way seems to be by affecting the existing layers. Skeletor, can you try to apply the filter on one of the faction symbols I've posted here to show me how you want it to look?

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay I think this came out pretty good. I was thinking about a logo for the mod, and got a viking symbol and found a cemetary cross with christ, and I combined the two. Made a background (the "shield"), layered it all up and made some cracks on it. Then I found an axe and filtered it a lot so it would fit. This is what I came up with, and I'm pretty happy with it. Quite fotogenic ;)
Of course you may not like it, so this is just a suggestion. I think combining vikings, christianity and war like this works well :) can be used as a logo for the mod maybe. Haven't worked so much with the title, but anyway I would like to hear what you think.



Edit: when I think it over I think the title should be much better, will work on that after some feedback (tomorrow)

[GoreBag]

I think the Welsh one is the best. As for asymmetry...I vote against it. No nation would like to be seen behind an asymmetrical object as a banner when the symbol is intended to have been symmetrical.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Okay I think this came out pretty good. I was thinking about a logo for the mod, and got a viking symbol and found a cemetary cross with christ, and I combined the two. Made a background (the "shield"), layered it all up and made some cracks on it. Then I found an axe and filtered it a lot so it would fit. This is what I came up with, and I'm pretty happy with it. Quite fotogenic ;)
Of course you may not like it, so this is just a suggestion. I think combining vikings, christianity and war like this works well :) can be used as a logo for the mod maybe. Haven't worked so much with the title, but anyway I would like to hear what you think.



Edit: when I think it over I think the title should be much better, will work on that after some feedback (tomorrow)

Wow, impressive!

In a way it looks like it could both be a pagan and a Christian symbol, depending on how you look. The snake is also a Christian symbol so it's not incorrect as a crufix, and at the same time the guy could be Loki at the tree and that makes it entirely pagan.

Only thing I'm wondering about is if you've made it transparent etc., and how it looks on top of one or two loading screens. Or will you add a frame or outer glow etc? Personally I think an outer glow could work well for this one.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some new, hopefully improved, versions of faction symbols:



Upper row (left to right): Scots, Welsh, Khazar, Saxons version 2
Bottom row (left to right): Rebels, Saxons version 1, Sweden version 1, Sweden version 2

I'll redo the Irish and Norwegian symbols, the last ones didn't feel right IMO. Also they should perhaps be a little more detailed. Can someone get hold of concept art for Irish and Norwegian symbols?

Some comments on my own decisions: Thor's hammer can't be made looking good in yellow, so I'm using silver and blue instead for Swedish symbol. Scots: I could also make one with an entire eagle, not just the head, and fit the new better head (with some heavy editing of course) on top of the old scottish eagle body used for the battle banner.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I don't know if this broken sword on green background is historical etc., but thought it looked cool for the Irish:

[ScionTheWorm]

Wow, impressive!

In a way it looks like it could both be a pagan and a Christian symbol, depending on how you look. The snake is also a Christian symbol so it's not incorrect as a crufix, and at the same time the guy could be Loki at the tree and that makes it entirely pagan.

Only thing I'm wondering about is if you've made it transparent etc., and how it looks on top of one or two loading screens. Or will you add a frame or outer glow etc? Personally I think an outer glow could work well for this one.

Yes it's very modifyable, I've sort of made the whole thing in photoshop exclusively, so all sorts of colours etc. could be applied to it. It will also be as nice whatever background it will be on, and it's quite large in size so it can be resized or whatever. I think it would work better on a background other than white, will make an example.

I was quite happy with this one so excuse my overexcitement

I have no idea about the historical accuracy, but I think the Scots and the Welsh is good. I think the rebels is quite similar if not the same as the one in vanilla, which is a nice one but I would prefer another one just for the sake of the feeling. I think the others are a little asymmetrical, I think they should be 100% symmetric. But the results is going to be really great. Can I lay some finish on them when they are done?? Please...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Can I lay some finish on them when they are done?? Please...

Sure, I don't know how to use the cracks so it's best if someone who knows it does it!

Any suggestions for better symbol for rebels?

As for the assymmetry in the coloring of the saxon symbol, it's due to the conversion to jpg-format. I don't think the Swedish one is assymetrical either (unless in the second one where I accidentally made a layer that shouldn't have been included visible, with the effect that the cutting looks bad, but please ignore that and pretend the cutting is as good in that one as in the other one when judging the symbols). But the Khazar symbol is still assymetrical. I just made it quick and by hand... The welsh one is still just a test version so it might also be assymetrical, but it can be fixed. I won't do it unless you all like the symbol itself as I'm slow and not too experienced at photoshop graphics...

BTW in the cases where there are two symbols I'd like to know which one you like most (or hate least... ) so I know how to proceed...

[ScionTheWorm]

Just to give you the feeling with the cracks I made this:



I think it worked very well for the welsh one, but for the scottish one it more looked some american patriot thing. You should tone down the colours, for instance make the blue more gray-blue. But I can do that when finishing and making them in the same style. I think thors hammer will look great when it have some cracks and stuff. Keep up the good work!

Edit: I like the red saxon one. You should apply some more patterns to it, like the thors hammer (yes like the one with patterns very much )

[Ranika]

A splintered sword, shield, or spear, (or all three) beneath a cross or triune symbol, is a common Irish symbol from the period (mind you; the Dal Riadans (Scots) are also ostensibly Irish during the period, and used similar imagery). Similarly, a horizontal broken sword with three entangled serpents over it, or a spear over three serpents, was also fairly popular. I like the cracked wood background of the Welsh. Backgrounds like that help the symbol stand out; it looks much better done.

For the Irish, I should also note, green is not associated with the Irish at this time (that came about in the middle ages, and was reinforced during the Victorian conquests; the Knights of the Green Cross, a Gaelic subset of the Templar, had green crosses instead of red; slowly, green became associated with Catholic Irish; during Cromwell's excursions in Ireland, the color was reinforced as a symbol of Irish Catholics). While there are some green banners (such as the flag of the Laigini; Leinstermen), more commonly associated are yellow, red, and blue.

[skeletor]

Looks good. If your a bit gentle with the highlight, and don't tutch the outer ring, it wold look perfect. It's a good layout for the other symbols...

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

i think the outer ring should have some cracks.. but not red as here though. i don't think this one is the one we should use, will make a better one.

skeletor: what do you think about the logo-thing?

[skeletor]

I think the logo is superbe if it works ingame, looks very clean and professionally. I'm not sure about the dark writing in the dark loadingscreens, but if you put some glow around it, i guess it will look great...



-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I think the logo is superbe if it works ingame, looks very clean and professionally. I'm not sure about the dark writing in the dark loadingscreens, but if you put some glow around it, i guess it will look great...



-Skel-

Forget about the writing, I'm making a new one. Just to put the symbol in context really. Quite happy with the symbol, though we should maybe drop the axe?

[Rodion Romanovich]

i think the outer ring should have some cracks.. but not red as here though. i don't think this one is the one we should use, will make a better one.

I like the cracks, perhaps they're a little too heavy though... Are the cracks a separate layer?

If you want to simplify your work and be able to apply different things to different parts of the image you might want my template psd-file. I've separated the outer ring etc. in different layers in that template, so it's really easy to work from. Also, for the inner circle, the background, here's the system I've been using to get the 3d-look (that isn't part of the actual template and has to be redone each time background color is changed):
1. create circular selection from pixel (2,2) and to pixel (126,126).
2. fill with the color that'll be used in the middle of and most of the background
3. add inner glows/high.
4. simplify layer
5. rotate layer contents 180 degrees
6. use the dodge tool in upper left corner once over a larger area, then once more during the area which will be most lighted.

Also I wouldn't mind if someone else made all or most of the logos, because I'm not very good at it and when I do something useable, it takes me like 3 hours or so... If not, I'd at least like some concept art (in worst case at least something made in paint with the pen so I know at least a little how you mean), and suggestions on colors. Can we make a list of the basic colors for all faction symbols?

Here's the start of that list:
* FACTION - PRIMARY COLOR - SECONDARY COLOR
* Welsh - White with small trace of red - Red
* Saxons - Red - White with small trace of yellow
* Scots - Grey-blue - Brown-grey
* Irish - ?
* Asturia - ?
* Normans - ?
* Sweden - Blue - Grey
* Norway - ?
* Denmark - ?
* Khazar - Brown - Silver
* Maygars - ?
* Bulgars - ?
* Byzantines - ?
* Papal states - (how about a crucifix, or a crucifix with one sword on each side of it as symbol btw?)
* Holy roman empire - black and a sharp yellow (former byzantine eagle)
* France - ? (can someone get hold of a picture of the fleur de lis?)
* Lotharingia - ?
* Al Andalus - ?
* Abbassids - ?
* Rebels - ? (new suggestion for symbol needed... maybe a thinner hay-fork head? or a complete hay-fork? or a fist? how about choosing their colors as off-white, brown and grey - the standard colors of peasant clothing?)

Red and blue is already overused. We should try to favor green, purple and yellow symbols whenever there's a choice between one such and one with red and/or blue.