Units

[Archbaker]

I just spent a couple hours compiling information from various Spanish sites. Then I found all the same on Wikipedia in English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
Look at Section three and five. I cannot find similar informaton to chapter five in any other language, including Spanish, so I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it is our best source for now. It is also not particular to Asturian soldiers, but it IS true of Castilla-León and we know that the ruling class of Asturies were Visigoths.

A small summary of the military information:

Peones: Litt. “Peasants”. Levies of either archers or spear/short sword

Royal Knights: Nobles with Visigoth ancestors. Wear gothic armour with “braceplate” (breastplate?) and use lance, javelins, sword and kite-shaped shield. Also used double-axe.

Caballeros Hidalgos: Lesser nobles (Don Quijote was one). Leather armour, javelins, spears, sword and Moorish-style shields.

Caballeros Villanos: Litt. “villains” or “serfs” Non-noble knights. Militia version of the hidalgo.

Generally:
Helmets are Norman-style.
Infantry use short single-bladed swords and cavalry use long double-bladed ones.
Shields are round or kidney-shaped except for royal knights.
Armours are mostly leather reinforced with scales, but maille exists (royal knights and possibly hidalgos should wear it), no horse barding.
The double-headed axe is a 30 cm melee weapon balanced for throwing. I imagine it mostly a footman’s weapon and used like Norse axes, although it has an extra head. Since there will be throwing axes in BI a unit could throw a few before closing in.

The late-period triggered super-cavalry could be these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago

Thoughts:
As far as I can see, Asturia should have weaker, but more flexible heavy cavalry than the Franks. I think that is enough to give the faction something to hang its hat on on the military side of things. All or most infantry troops should be either levies or foot knights, and I think I would give infantry levies a bonus in mountains if possible.


I hope this is useful.
I leave you with these pictures of Asturian crosses.
"Cruz de la Victoria"

[Archbaker]

Pictures of crosses
http://images.google.com/images?q=%2...&start=20&sa=N

The site I originally went to. Notice the photos of wax dolls.
http://www.almargen.com.ar/sitio/sec...storia/covado/

I haven't got a lot of ideas for tech tree, but I see no reason for it to be essentially different from that of the Franks. I still think a morale building would be appropriate considering at least the popular version of their early history.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Scion: Nice model and skin! I somehow missed it until now. About the armor on the second fella I don't remember, but it should be listed in the tech tree.

@Archbaker: Yeah, that's great info, now I'll try to make a revised tech tree.

[ScionTheWorm]

okay no armour. I just saw on that picture above of the horsearcher that doesn't look that rich but still has armour. but he will also look better without.

are there any experts here on how the different magyar units should look?

[Archbaker]

This is a bit about Andalus buildings. Mostly from this site.
http://www.legadoandalusi.es/alandalu_body_esp.htm#

Language lesson:
Madrasah: School
Al-funduqa: Grain market and warehouse
Zoco: Market. Spanish spelling, I cannot find ethymology.
As-saqiya: Irrigation
Al-qantara: well, aqueduct

Buildings:
Orchards, park-like gardens, gardens of herbal medicine and vegetable gardens, introduced many new species of plants to Europe. Including oranges, artichokes, asparagus, melons and a long list of others.
Public baths and most likely best sewage system in Europe. Hospitals.


For units, I have stooped to wargamer sources. I actually trust this one, though.
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/0711/armies.htm
About army composition.

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/0711/painting_guide.htm
About dress style.

Troop ideas distilled from that site:
Hashid javelinmen, slingers, archers, spearmen, cavalry etc.: Levies. Single-coloured shield in bright colours. Topcoat, tunic and trousers in pastel scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white. White turban.

Jund slingers, archers, spearmen, cavalry etc.: Hereditary regulars. I think they were paid as the Andalusian army is referred to as professional. As Hashid, but simple motif shields. Late regulars may use the adarga shield.

Medium-late Jund: These soldiers wear scarlet tunics and fight as copies of European troops. This includes heavy cavalry units and crossbowmen.

Al-murabitun: Black top coats, black cloaks, black veils. This sounds rather expensive, so I think this should only be applied to the al-murabitun swordsmen if the fanatics are to be cheap units.

Abid spearmen: Senegalese slaves. Carry long leather shields and bamboo spears. White tunics with coloured waist band. No turban.

Abid archers: Senegalese slaves with bows. As above.

Abid Guard: A possible Senegalese elite cavalry. Dress like Murabitim and are richly attired, cloaks with Coptic patterns. I think they are just an al-Andalus version of Abbasid Ghulams.

Berber militia cavalry and horse/camel archers: Loincloth and possibly turban.

Berber professionals: Wear the chilaba or djellabah: (http://www.webcciv.org/actividades/e...inoChilaba.jpg)



Thoughts: As a rule, al-Andalus should be highly sophisticated and have good agriculture. Their army is primarily infantry, but they have good light cavalry including camels and decent heavy cavalry. What should be the main distinction between Al-Andalus and the Abbassid Caliphate?

[Archbaker]

I forgot to ask if there was something in particular you wanted to know about Al-Andalus and the Abbasid caliphate. The tech trees looked rather well-rounded except that they were too similar. I cannot match the information you have already found, but I could look for specifics.

[tutankamon]

The first problem in dealing with the subject of Huscarls is to decide whether you are looking at the traditional meaning of the word in Old Norse, or whether you are talking about the English military term.

In Old Norse the term Huscarl is just a word meaning a household servant - house-karl - and could be applied to anyone who served a lord in his household. In Old English it has a meaning nearer to the later medieval idea of 'Household Troops', the highly trained soldier who served a particular lord and his family or household. Certainly by the later eleventh century, the Norse usage of the word was similar to that of the English, although earlier on it had had a more general meaning. For the purposes of this article we will be looking at the English Huscarls.

There is little doubt that Huscarls were introduced into England during the reign of Cnut (although there is some evidence for an elite mercenary force during Aethelred's reign). An institution similar to the Huscarls had existed in Scandinavia for some time, and it is possible that Cnut was trying to 'standardise' that aspect of all his empire. It is also possible that tales of the Varangian Guard in Byzantium inspired the formation of the Huscarls as the King's bodyguard. According to Sveno, Cnut re-organised his army in 1018 and proclaimed that only those 'who bore a two-edged sword with gold inlaid hilt' would be admitted into his chosen guard. It is said that wealthy warriors made such haste to get swords of the right quality that the sound of the sword-smiths' hammers was heard throughout the land. It may be that Cnut was trying to get some Englishmen into his elite guard to aid the unification between Englishmen and Danes. Whatever the reason, it can be seen that this would have given Cnut the chance to get some of the best warriors in the land into his personal guard. How was this guard organised?

Many of the writers earlier this century thought that the Huscarls were organised in a similar way to the Jomsvikings. However, more recent research suggests that the Jomsvikings may never have existed as the disciplined guild of warriors portrayed in the sagas. What is certain, however, is that Huscarls were paid troops with their own rules of justice and discipline, answerable directly to the King (or later some of the more powerful Eorls who had their own Huscarls). Most of the Huscarls lived at the King's court and served him directly. By the time of Edward the Confessor some Huscarls had been given estates by the king, varying in size from half a hide to fifteen hides, with an average being 4 hides, although these were probably the exception rather than the rule.

Traditionally, the Huscarls 'contract' to the King was renewed on New Year's Day, and any Huscarl was free to leave the king's service. It is also clear that problems of internal discipline were dealt with by a meeting of the Huscarls. The worst sentence was to be declared 'niðing' (a Norse word meaning coward or craven) and cast out of the Huscarls. It is possible that Eorl Swein, Harold's brother, had been a Huscarl since when he abducted the abbess of Leominster and killed his cousin Beorn, he was not tried by a Witan and outlawed, the king and the army declared Swein 'niðing', suggesting military, not civil, justice. The exact details of the 'guild laws' for the Huscarls are now not as certain as they were once thought to be, since the principle sources for these laws have been shown to be dubious. However, the existing evidence is strong enough to be sure that the Huscarls did have their own 'guild-laws' by which they lived, based on loyalty to the king and an oath of true loyalty to the other Huscarls, just as the thegns of Cambridge did in the early eleventh century and the 'peace guild' of London did during Aethelstan's reign.

The royal Huscarls are thought to have numbered about 3000, a vast number of men to pay and, as a consequence, a special tax of one mark of silver from ten hides was levied to pay the Huscarls. In addition to their pay in coin (thought to have been paid once per month), they were housed and fed at the king's expense. It is not certain whether the king also paid for their arms and armour, although it is likely they were expected to supply these themselves (arms and armour may have been given as gifts in return for good service too). Obviously, they would equip themselves with the best arms and armour they could, not only because their lives depended on it (literally), but also because the king could dismiss them, removing their livelihood too, if their war gear was not 'up to scratch'. If they were to constitute the core of the army, their war-gear had to be the best available. In addition to his sword, a huscarl would also have been expected to have a horse to carry him to the battle (although he would dismount and fight on foot), a mail-shirt, helmet, shield, spear, and, of course, the 'massive and bloodthirsty two handed axe'.

That Huscarls were valued servants of the king is bourne out by an event in 1041. Two of Harthacnut's huscarls were killed by the citizens of Worcester whilst collecting a particularly unpopular tax. Harthacnut decided to ravage the entire shire by dispatching the forces of five eorls and 'almost all his huscarls' to teach his subjects a lesson in obedience. This also gives us a hint to the fact that a huscarl's duty to the king was not limited to fighting. Like the thegns, the huscarls served the king in peace as well as war. They appear as tax collectors, witnesses to royal charters, recipients of land grants and donors of land. Often the same man is found described in charters as cynges huskarl and minister regis. If the huscarl's duty was purely military he would have been described as milites regis not minister regis. Huscarls could best be described as ministers and attendants upon the king (or eorl) who specialised in, but were not limited to, war. Their obligation to serve in arms arose from the lordship bond rather than the cash inducement. In this way they probably differed from their contemporaries, the lithsmen and butecarles who were purely mercenary troops and seem to have sided with the highest bidder.

What happened to the Huscarls? The huscarls probably formed the spear head of any army right up until the Conquest. After the Conquest the huscarls seem to have completely disappeared. Why was this? Certainly the vast majority died on Senlac ridge, fighting around the king, but not all. Most of those that did survive, along with many of King Harold's thegns, and some of the eorl's huscarls seem to have crossed to the continent as mercenary troops. Many of these made it as far as Byzantium and became members of the Varangian Guard, so much so that, by the twelfth century, the Varangian Guard was sometimes referred to as 'the English Guard'.

[Archbaker]

Another foray into the world of wargames:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...s%26safe%3Doff
I believe this is what a westernised al-Andalus infantryman would look like. Or a wargamers idea thereof. He is 12th century, though.

Arabic heavy cavalry
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DN

http://www.russianvityaz.ru/gallery/mid_east/pb504.htm
This cavalryman does not confirm to my (one) source about Andalusian colours, possibly Abbasid?

[Csatadi]

ScionTheWorm:

I am happy to see the first Magyar pic.

The first thing I miss his horse. See the links I sended there are pictures about the eastern type horses, too.
I suggest to you getting the photo on Horsearcher’s message over the sabre. The guy is bearded but historically it is better if they wear only a moustache. Not every archer should wear an earring (or rings) I suggest it for the richest Chosen M H Archers or Kopjások.
The scabbard of the sabre and the case of the bow is missing. His head gear is rather a Cumanian type. They should wear also a little ’bag’ on their right side. And the toe-cap of his boots should leaning up a little. Braids are very recommended even near his ears. Sorry, I am not able to explain accurately see the pictures.
I suggest brown hair to this guy (his hair will seen the best). The others can be black or brown haired. Every pieces of the figure has too dark colors. The details are not visible well.
His sabre is line. Is it possible to draw a curved blade? I suggest sabres to other warriors.
Sorry I cannot send attachments to the list.

Unit types from my tech tree:
Magyar Horse Archers {Magyar lovasíjászok} [no armor, reflex bow, spontoon {fokos- see Horsearcher’s posting},] - supposing not every warrior had a sabre. The fokos has long handle ~1 meter.
Lancemen {Kopjások} [medium cavalry, sabre, reflex bow, lance with little flag (banderole?), round shield, scale mail like on the pictures, earring, helmet
Helmets: peaked ones maybe with fur around the base. I think the helmet on the painting is not from this era.
Chosen Magyar Horse Archers {Válogatott magyar lovasíjászok} [sabre and reflex bow, leather armour with bigger steel ornaments, colorful clothing helmet
Bodyguards {Testőrség}: medium cavalry, sabre, reflex bow, scale mail like on the pictures, helmet. Colorful clothing.
The leaders should have a horn. Not rhino-men but the blower type people.
Helmets: they can be like the headgear of the warriors on the postings
Knights: German knights, 11th century.

slav axemen: sorry I don’t know the slav design. Stole from the Rus armies.
slav spearmen: spear, shield, no armour
Peasants: do you use them at all?

Yes, the Magyars are more popular unlike the Khazars. The reason is there are some millions from our people but how many Khazars can you find these days?

[tutankamon]

Just a thougt... how will the appearence of the viking churches be in the mod?

[skeletor]

Not sure really, but atleast in norway, the stav-churches were first built for worshiping norse gods. But by the time Norway becam christian, the stav-churches were used for worshiping god. I guess the same thing goes for sweden, eaven tho the stav-churches is mainly a Norwegian fenomen.

The viking factions will maynly be Norse factions. So using their peagan "hovs" wold be best i guess. Im not really sure about the danes tho. They were probably more influenced by the franks, and the closters were more built out there. But i guess you can fill us in with that part tutankamon

Heres a pic of a stav church, and i'm really looking forwar to see it ingame. (this was built in 1180ad)


-Skel-

[Archbaker]

Small faction description for Asturia.

The Kingdom of Asturia
Also known as Asturias, Asturies.

The history of the Kingdom of Asturia is the history of the re-conquest of Iberia.
After the fall of the West Roman Empire, the Iberian Peninsula came under the rule of Visigoth kings. Unified in Christianity, the Romano-Celtic Iberians and Germanic Goths merged into a unified culture with the Visigoths as the political elite.
The Arab invasion soon changed this; however, as almost the entire peninsula became part of the al-Andalus Emirate.
The unimportant Northern districts were the last to be occupied, and when they were, the Andalusians lacked the manpower to station sizeable garrisons there.
In the district of Asturia, one such garrison was expelled by the nobleman Don Pelayo who proclaimed himself king and managed to keep the district free of further attacks while the Emir set his eyes on the richer Frankish provinces.
After the al-Andalus army suffered a great defeat in France, the Emirate started to consolidate by rebuilding its armies and retake the rebellious Asturian province.
Pelayo withdrew into the mountains and let the Arabs meet him at a place known as Covadonga, the Deep Cave–said to be the only part of modern Spain that was never under Muslim rule.
Pelayo and his knights held the cave while the rest of his men stationed themselves further up the mountainsides and bombarded their attackers.
Legend has it that the warriors in the cave were visited by the Virgin Mary and given the courage to fight on, Pelayo charged out of the cave and chose the Arabs away.
The defeated Andalusian army tried to retreat to Leon, but was attacked in the rear by Pelayo’s men and wiped out. This victory became the first of many and Asturia came to include large parts of the peninsula and was the first of the many medieval Hispanic kingdoms.
---

The Asturian foot knight could also be an axeman, using the same weapon as the axe-thrower, since the Gothic axe was a weapon of the nobility.
Royal Knights would be Caballeros Reales in Castilian.


I think most factions in BI will be able to build religious buildings for different religions, making it possible to have a stav-church in Ansgar's Ribe and a hov to Odin in Roskilde. In fact, I am almost certain this will be possible based on the BI faq.

[Rodion Romanovich]

stav church [...] i'm really looking forwar to see it ingame

yeah, I was thinking the same thing, it's one of the most important typical Norwegian cultural items IMO, and would be a shame to neglect. I'll probably add some conversion system for the vikings too. That means magyars and vikings will have conversion, while all others haven't (would be waste of work to make bulgars, who converted so shortly after the starting date, with conversion). So then the Norwegian churches could look like that. I wonder though if it isn't necessary to keep buildings of same culture same for all who are of that culture, so that Sweden, Denmark and Rus will also get those as a consequence... Hopefully not, they should be unique to Norway.

@ archbaker: Nice, I edited the royal knights to the new name

[Csatadi]

Bah, I did not think it is such easy to insert pics.

Scion:
This guy has a full gear I think.


This man looks great. He has another type of headgear. With his red
moustache he seems to be a viking, isn't it? But I'm sure he has got brown hair. And see the men's braids.


This headgear is the most popular one. And see his beautiful horn.


I suggest no armour and fokos to the Horse Archers because of they will cost toooo much.

Good job!

[tutankamon]

yeah, I was thinking the same thing, it's one of the most important typical Norwegian cultural items IMO, and would be a shame to neglect. I'll probably add some conversion system for the vikings too. That means magyars and vikings will have conversion, while all others haven't (would be waste of work to make bulgars, who converted so shortly after the starting date, with conversion). So then the Norwegian churches could look like that. I wonder though if it isn't necessary to keep buildings of same culture same for all who are of that culture, so that Sweden, Denmark and Rus will also get those as a consequence... Hopefully not, they should be unique to Norway.

All though you know that that stav-church is historically/arkeologically incorect?

[tutankamon]

I would rather go for something like this because it fits in with your timespan..


recontruktion of a stav-church from 1060

[Archbaker]

A bit more on Asturian clothing styles in case you needed more detail.

Primary sources!111one
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scan...es/note59.html
Ironic title

http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scan...s/plate06.html
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scan...s/plate07.html
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scan...s/plate04.html
Royal knights


General discussion of Iberian fashion in the period. More Romanesque than Visigothic.
http://www.halimal.com/WWW/indu/scan...l#chapROMANICO

[tutankamon]

The newest analyses of arkelogical material shows that many danes where christians even before Denmark was officially christened. This rather rambling discussion is an hypothetical attempt to show why the Danish pagans so easily converted when faced with a proselytizing preacher.

"Our God Does That Too!"

Preacher: Our God is one, and yet has three aspects
Viking: You don't say? funny, our god Oðin comes in three forms too, Oðin, Villi and Ve. Sometimes they're brothers and sometimes they're one person.

Preacher: Ah, but our God made a great sacrifice for us.
Viking: Yeah?

Preacher: He was crucified...
Viking: ???

Preacher: Hung on a cross - the tree of redemption. He even suffered the indignity of a spear thrust though his side.
Viking: Strange you should say that. Oðin hanged himself on a tree with a spear in his side.

Preacher: Yeah? Well, I bet he didn't come back to life again.
Viking: Of course he did. Why would we call him a god if he were dead?

Preacher: I can see I'm not getting through here. Let me tell you what will happen in the last days of earth. A horn will sound...
Viking: It's not called Gjallerhorn, is it?

Preacher: I hadn't finished. A horn will sound and the Lord of Hosts will lead multitudes against the hordes of Hell who are released to join battle.
Viking: I know that. And they'll all die...

Preacher: Hah! But not us! The elect will survive and a new world will arise where we will live in peace for ever.
Viking: I hadn't finished either. That new world will be called Gimli and men and gods shall live in peace.

Preacher: [sigh] Not if you're not a Christian, you won't. The unrighteous will burn in everlasting Hell. The righteous shall sit with God and sing hymns of splendour.
Viking: They'll be lucky. Christians are not allowed to fight. If they're not allowed to fight they won't be getting very far.

Preacher: Fight? We are allowed to fight. If it is a just cause we must fight.
Viking: Just cause, eh? Hmm...

Preacher [getting carried away]: Of course! With the armour of righteousness, and the breastplate of ....
Viking: Whoa, whoa, stop! What's that? Do all Christians get them?

Preacher: Of course. We are assured so by St. Paul. They are the rightful inheritance of all true followers of Christ.
Viking: Do they protect against these new winged spears? Nasty things they are. And my armour's getting a bit worn.

Preacher [expansively]: They protect against everything!
Viking [waking up]: They do? Where do I sign?

[skeletor]

Nice story

On the stav chusches, the oldest one still standing was made arond 1100ad. However, alot of the interior carving is older, and probably taken from a rather cimilar structure (i'll find some sources to that). The problem with the structures is that they are made of wood, and have therefor burned down, or roted.

Btw, tutankamon, have you got access to any good reconstruction of Trellborg? it wold be nice to use as a base for the viking city, or fortress.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

yes very amusing...

[GoreBag]

That was pretty funny, actually. I still believe the conversions were more like Bathory's One Rode to Asa Bay, though..

[Archbaker]

I found some pictures of churches and monasteries. I imagine Asturia will share buildings with the other SW European countries, but just in case I will publish them. There are also mosques and palaces from medium-late al-Andalus.

Pre-Romanic Asturian architecture. Romanic refers to the Romanic style of architecture and in this context means the archi
http://www.arteguias.com/arquitecturaprerromanica.htm

10th century Asturian church. The belfry is very common.
http://www.el-caminoreal.com/monumentos/gobiendes.htm

Romanic Iberian architecture (late, but within period)
http://www.arteguias.com/arquitectura.htm
and http://www.arteguias.com/comarcasidra.htm



al-Andalus architecture. Caliphate era.
http://www.arteguias.com/califal.htm

al-Andalus, Taifa era
http://www.arteguias.com/taifas.htm

Trelleborg (just from google search. I'm sure Tut can get better stuff):
http://www.harnois.fr/3d/main.php (bottom row, second picture)
http://www.burgenland-mv.de/html/trelleborg_0.html (gallery)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/Trelle/art1.htm (geometry)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/Trelle/art4.htm (geometry Fyrkat)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/fotose...eborg/foto.htm (dig gallery)
http://home3.inet.tele.dk/pmh/fotose...yrkat/foto.htm (Fyrkat dig gallery)

[tutankamon]

Why do you want to make trelleborg? because as I recall most of the cities in Rome:TW are cities.. and in the viking ages most of the siege was around cities not forts.. so why not take the fortified cities that we know of such as Aros (århus) or hedeby as examples..

Hedeby..




Map of Aros (århus)


Houses:
a typpical Danish House Maticle:


a Grubehouse(little workshop) and a family house..


Another Grubehouse


A view from Aros port..


In the streets of Aros

[tutankamon]

Sorry for the big pictures....

[tutankamon]

I was wondering I you have thought of ships, allthough they are manily danish, yet if not heres some inspiration.. (based on finds from Roskilde Fjord)

[Meneldil]

Thanks for all the infos. It will likely be useful later on.

[Archbaker]

The al-Andalus tech tree says hashid cavalry two times. I would swap the second one with this:
al-Andalus KnightsWears scarlet tunic over maille and white turban around helmet. Uses round shield and spear. Is esentially a copy of the Caballero Real or the better Frankish knights. Definately better armour than any Abbasid cavalry, but possibly less than the Catholic cavalry of the same rung.
This actually is a knightly unit. It could even be composed of actual feudal knights as al-Andalus was the only Muslim emirate to give fiefs to warriors.

If you want something comparable to Ghulams, the Abid Guard above could be substituted instead. The Al-Murabitun, being a Berber clan, also preferred horseback fighting and could be a good candidate for a cavalry unit.


The al-Andalus army had decent and varied cavalry, but was based on infantry, so more infanty units wouldn't hurt. The Abid Guard can be infantry as easily as cavalry, but not both. And there could also be a cheap (but not levied) unit of white slaves:
Saqlabi Slavic and Iberian slaves. I have no idea what weapons or clothes they would have,
I don't actually know if the faction needs more infantry (it does have nice spearmen), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that those troops too poor to have maille would use a pink-brown jerkin of quilted felt called a pambuck. If they wore anything, that is.

[Archbaker]

On Boats
My thoughts are that well organised states should have the most powerful, but least seaworthy vessels. Vikings get less combat power each rung, but can build ships from small ports. Byzantium should dominate naval warfare, but Vikings can travel further and probably get more for their money or slower build times.

Mediterranean galleys (Byzantine terminology, but applicable to all Mediterranean powers including Muslims-and probably mainland Catholic factions as well):
Rung1: - Rung2: Ousiako Rung3: Pamphylos Rung 4: Dromon. Greek Fire Siphon Galley (Byzantium only).
The Dromon is a light, fast polyreme crewed with marines and often carrying artillery in addition to rams – late dromonds would have boarding planks instead of rams. Ouisakos and Pamphyli are lighter Dromons. Technically, all Byzantine warships were likely to have Greek fire siphons, but that cannot be represented if ships are to be shared.

Nordic galleys (Norse terminology)
Rung1: Ferja Rung2: Knar Rung3: Snekke Rung 4: Kneid, Norwegian Dragonship (Norvegen only)

Does somebody know anything about Saxon/British galleys? They could just be the first two or three Nordic ones.

I'm collecting some ideas for ancillaries and traits as well.

[skeletor]

Sounds great!

I think the saxon/british allso used some sort of longships. I have seen some description of them, and they were usually bigger then the vikingships (ould carry more pople). But they were slower, and alot less agile, and didn't have the ability to enter shallow waters.

The greek fire is a must. Do you allso know what ships they were fighting, the muslim ones? And have you got any pic's with styles and type og rigging for the unit description?

-Skel-

[Archbaker]

I'm neither a sailor nor an archaeologist, but my research tells me that all mediterranean galleys were essentially of the Dromon variety. The Arabs would use different names for them, but today all these ships are referred to as dromons and I have seen wargamers refer to small dromons as pamphylos even if used by Arabs.
The traditional Arab trading ship, on the other hand, was the dhow, but this was useless for war.

Dromon primary sources: http://www.unf.edu/classes/byzantium...-greekfire.gif
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:ByzantineDromon.jpg

Dromon secondary sources:
http://www.xlegio.ru/ships/bysanteum_dromon.jpg
http://mastor.snd.edu.gr/Museum/Muse...nos_Dromon.JPG
http://enguerrand.gourong.free.fr/Hi...iv/dromon1.gif

Dhow:
http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~matto...ure16/dhow.jpg

I can't find any pictures of ousiaki and pamphyli. Presumably they are just smaller and lighter models, but still have the forecastle and ram.

I would just give the Muslims and Catholics the same ships, but use the imaginary "Greek Fire Galley" to give Byzantium its deserved edge over the others. Otherwise, Byzantium should have a whole range of ships with the word Greek Fire in front of them, and apart from taking up space it might give them too great an advantage; I am sure not every ship would have a siphon, anyway.
Since the Byzantine empire will probably start with at least one city large enough to produce my proposed Greek Fire Galley, this will be a serious threat to would-be Abbassid invaders.

Edit: Oh, and this page has a 3D model of Skuldelev 2, the Skeid.
http://www.stigombord.dk/