Units

[Archbaker]

This little wargamer page has a bit about Abbassid, but little in terms of historical information.
It does confirm my suspicion that the Jund-Hashid system was in place in the Caliphate, so all ordinary units (as opposed to unique units like desert spearmen, saharan cavalry etc.) can be replaced with the same Jund-hashid units as al-Andalus. It may also hold some inspiration for unit design, but I advise taking it with a huge grain of salt after seeing the same guy's "Viking" army.

Edit: what wargamer page?, you ask. This one:
http://www.miniwars.com/AbbasidArabs.html

[edyzmedieval]

Hey guys!!

Checking out how my friends are doing.
How's the progress of the Magyar and Khazar units?!

Oh, let me give you some info. Dromons were the basic ship of the Byzantines. They rarely used bigger ships.

And with the Greek Fire, it's kinda hard to implement it.

[Archbaker]

The Greek Fire Galley is not supposed to be a bigger ship. It is just supposed to be a generic galley (which all Mediterranean warships are) with a Greek Fire siphon.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hey guys!!

Checking out how my friends are doing.
How's the progress of the Magyar and Khazar units?!

We're progressing fine, having made about 3 maygar units, and that even though we weren't concentrating fully on putting higher priority magyars and khazars than other units. Now with a priority on those, things will probably go faster.

Oh, let me give you some info. Dromons were the basic ship of the Byzantines. They rarely used bigger ships.

And with the Greek Fire, it's kinda hard to implement it.

Greek fire siphons for land usage is hard to implement, yeah, but ships with greek fire can always be used.

[Archbaker]

These are a few thoughts on ancillaries and traits. Hopefully useful.

Ancillaries
Note that many of these ancillaries could be offices instead.



*Merchant Sailor* (Norse)
An independent ship owner whose trade in exotic countries brings great wealth back home. Some of his wares have strange blood stains, though.
Increased trade.

*Grand Vizier* (Abbassid, al-Andalus)
A great caliphate has too many matters of state for a single man. The trusted grand vizier helps it run smoothly. The less trusted is a knife at the caliph’s throat.
Management, influence bonus. Possibly security penalty.

*Vizier of Information* (Abbassid)
The Ministry of Information is important in both war and peace.
Reduced agent training cost.

*Vizier* (Abbassid, al-Andalus)
A powerful magistrate and councillor is a valuable retainer.
Management bonus.

*Michael Psellus* (Byzantium. 1018 to at least 1078)
Michael Psellus the Younger is compared to Voltaire. A Platonist in a world of Aristotelians, he revived old Greek thinking and wrote everything from demonologies and treatises on grammar to history books and satires.
Management.

*Skald* (Norse)
A master of verse, knowledgeable about the gods and prepared to enter a battle to personally record the victories of a great lord.
Influence or morale bonus.
*Pharmacist* (Muslims and Byzantium)
Nature holds the remedy to all it inflicts.
Public health.



*Bragi Boddason the Old* (Norse or Swea, before 900)
The first known master of skaldic poetry, servant of several kings and so legendary he may well be the inspiration for the Asir god Bragi.
Influence and morale bonus. Pagan conversion.

*Thorsgode* (Norse)
A gode of Thor is both a servant of the god of battle and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus morale and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Odinsgode* (Norse)
A gode of Odin is both a servant of the Allfather and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus command and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Freyasgode* (Norse)
A gode of Freya is both a servant of the Vanir goddess of fertility and a chieftain. Such a man lends both political and spiritual aid.
Bonus population growth and management or influence. Pagan conversion.

*Ansgar* (HRE and Norse or Svea/Danmark, 810-865)
St. Ansgar, the “Apostle of the North”, was a monk invited to the Danish court where he tried to convert the Danes. Failing that, he set his eyes on Svea Riket where he erected a church in Birka. He was later made bishop of Hamburg and constructed a church in Hedeby with the right to ring the churchbells—although the locals were afraid it would scare away benign spirits.
Bonus Christian conversion.

*Adam of Bremen* (HRE 10??-1085)
The learned Magister Adam Bremensis chronicled the deeds of the bishops of Bremen and described the customs and geography of Scandinavia. He was the first known European to mention Vinland, modern-day North America, in writing.
Bonus management and command against Norse. Increased move points.

*Adalbert of Hamburg* (HRE 1000-1072)
Generous, prudent, and zealous as he was, his character was marred by indomitable pride, which has caused him to be depicted in the blackest colours.
-Adam of Bremen
The archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen was both a politician and a zealot at heart. He was both a missionary of the Slavic Wends and a vicar of the North, although the Scandinavians did not like his Bishopric much.
Adalbert is said to have refused a candidacy to become Pope in order to focus on his mission to the Wends, but was also involved in a power struggle within the court of the holy Roman emperor.
Bonus conversion and influence. Command against Slavs?

*Bishop* (All non-muslim)
An influential representative of the church.
Christian conversion and management.

*Pope* (HRE, Franks and Lotharingia, unique, but can occur at any time)
The Great Pontiff and Bishop of Rome is the most powerful man in the Catholic Church, and holds great influence in political matters as he speaks with the voice of God.
Christian conversion, influence, law.

*Antipope* (HRE, Franks and Lotharingia. unique, but can occur at any time. Rare. Anti-trait to Pope and Bishop)
This man claims to be the true pope. Many support him, but even more consider him a heretic.
Christian conversion, influence, unrest. Maybe less loyalty.

*Ibn Abi Sadiq* (Abbassid. 11th century)
This Persian author of commentaries on classical works of medicine and anatomy has become known as “the Second Hippocrates”.
Public health.

*Avicenna* (Abbassid, 980 - 1037)
Abu Ali Husain ebn-e Abdollah Ebn-e Sina-e Balkhi is among the greatest scientists of the Arabian world. He is the author of hundreds of books and a famed physician.
Troop recovery and public health.

*Monk*
A well educated man who lives an exemplar life in the service of God.
Christian conversion, reduced unrest.

*Ferdowsi Tousi* (Abbassid 935–1020)
The great Persian poet from the province of Khwarazm wrote the impressive national epic the Shahnama, which can both mean Book of Kings and King of Books. This mammoth poem, seven times the length of the Illiad, has been the main source of the preservation of Persian identity and language through the ages. It describes the history of modern Iran from mythical times to after the Arab conquest and chronicles the rise of the prophet Zoroaster.
Morale bonus. Unrest.

*Al-Biruni* (Abbassid 973-1048)
Abu Raihan Biruni was a scientific prodigy. At age 17 he calculated the latitude of his Khwarazmian home town, and at age 22 he published a major treatise on map projections. He calculated the radius of the Earth centuries before it was done in Europe, traveled the known world and spoke several languages.
Bonus management and move points.

*Military Historian* (Byzantium)
Study of the errors of the past will grant us victory in the future.
Bonus command.

*Regös* (Magyar)
A Magyar minstrel conserves lessons of the old gods in song and communes with the dead.
+1 influence and +5 happiness. Maybe pagan conversion.

*Cartographer* (Muslim)
Where Greek and Eastern thinking can be studied freely, mathematical principles influence even the way we see the world.
Bonus line of sight.

*Royal Mare* (Abbassid)
A great man does not deserve a horse like this. A horse like this deserves a great man.
Bonus commanding cavalry. Penalty commanding infantry.

*Pelayo’s Cross* (Asturian, unique)
King Pelayo is said to have made this simple cross from two pieces of wood shortly before the Battle of Covadonga to serve as a sign just like the cross that showed Emperor Constantine the way.
Bonus morale. Christian conversion.

*Piece of the True Cross* (Catholic)
This is a piece of the cross on which the Saviour was crucified. Its importance to god-fearing men is obvious.
Bonus morale. Christian conversion.

*Saintly Relic* (Catholic)
This is a piece of the dead body of a holy man. It inspires all good men and brings blessings of the Lord.
Increased happiness. Christian conversion.


*Averroes* (1126-1198, al-Andalus)
Abu Al-Walid Muhammad Ibn Rushd was a famous philosopher, mathematician and physicist.
Increased management.

*Jewish Translator* (al-Andalus)
Using the best for the task instead of those who share your views furthers learning.
Increased management.

*The Garment of Our Lady* (Frankish, unique)
The garment worn by the Virgin Mary at the time of the annunciation was given to Charlemagne by Empress Irene of Byzantium and serves as a reminder of the virtuous life of the Mother of God.
Morale bonus or decreased squalor/unrest. Christian conversion.

*Patriarch* (Byzantium)
A respected religious leader lends credence to any cause.
Increased command or management, and conversion.

*Rabbi* (Khazar)
Jewish priests maintain the Khazar state religion and occasionally convert members of the general populace, but they rarely represent the major religion in an area.
Judaic conversion.

Traits
I imagine most existing traits will be kept. Where these traits resemble existing ones they can either replace or be put in as the next level.
On Cognomina: If a given cognomen is posthumous (the Saint), or has a well known English translation (Bluetooth), I have given it in English. If it is highly culture-bound, has no good translation (Krake), doesn’t sound like a name in English (Hardråda), make sense in both languages (Hunger) or is best known in its original form (the Ganger), I have kept it as it were and given a short explanation of its meaning.
Cognomina that were likely to surface in any culture (the Good, the Great) have been made universal. Oh, and if I didn’t know the history of it I just skipped the word.

*Too large for his horse* (Normans, possibly Norse. Born. Cognomen the Ganger)
This man is of too great a stature to comfortably ride a horse and prefers to walk anywhere, earning the cognomen “the Walker”
Extra hit points, reduced cavalry command and/or move points.

*Wiry* (Norse or Danmark. Born. Cognomen Krake.)
This man is tall and sinewy, but not very broad-shouldered, earning him the nickname "Krake”., meaning “the Naked Trunk".
Extra hit points, reduced influence.

*Bald* (Lotharingia and Welsh. Cognomen the Bald)
This man has no hair, making him look less fit.
Decreased influence.

*Smeared Name* (Byzantium. Cognomen Copronymus)
Rumour has it this man defecated in the baptismal font as a baby. He has acquired the nickname “the Dung-Named”.
Decreased influence.

*Venerable* (Norse or Danmark. Gained. Gives Cognomen “the Old”)
This man has acquired a reputation of wisdom along with his old age.
Increased influence.

*Blue teeth* (Norse or Danmark. Born. Cognomen Bluetooth)
This man is not famed for his dental hygiene.
Decreased influence.

*Forked beard* (Norse or Danmark and Sweden. Cognomen Forkbeard)
This man has an impressive beard, fashionably split down the middle.
Increased influence.

*Great Conqueror* (All, gained. Gives cognomen “The Great”)
This man has achieved countless victories and is admired near and far, earning him the cognomen “The Great”.
Increased command, influence and management. I think it already exists in the game.

*Saint* (Norse or Danmark, gained. Gives cognomen “the Holy”)
This man is a Christian, and an extremely devout one at that. He will probably be canonised after his death. Foreign dignitaries admire him, but unless his countrymen share his faith his zealousness may be a curse.
Influence and Christian conversion.

*Tough* (Norse or Danmark, gained. Cognomen “the Hardy”)
This man has been through a lot, but always weathered the storm.

*Cursed farmer* (Norse or Danmark. Gained or born. Gives cognomen Hunger)
Lands under this man rarely see a decent harvest. Hunger follows where he goes.
Reduced farming output.

*Great Commander* (Gaelic, cognomen the Lion)
This man is a great commander.
Increased command.

*Wealthy* (Gaelic. Cognomen Cattle-Counter)
This man has become rich from trade and husbandry.
Bonus to income.

*Prostrates* (Gaelic. Cognomen Black-Knee)
This man spends most of the day on his knees in prayer. His devotion is admired, but not very manly.
Increased conversion and happiness. Decreased command.

*Strikes Hard* (Gaelic. Cognomen the Hammer)
This man has a no-nonsense approach to warfare.
Bonus command when attacking.

*Brave* (All. Cognomen the Bold)
Nothing scares this man.
Bonus bodyguard morale.

*Good Man* (All. Gained. Gives Cognomen “the Good”)
This man is famed for his benign rule.
Increased happiness.

*Many Prisoners* (Gaelic. Cognomen Master of the Hostages. Possibly given for not hunting down after battle)
This man has been victorious in many battles, and this has given him some human “bargain chips”.
Increased influence and command.

*Generous* (Norse or Danmark. Gained. Gives cognomen Ejegod)
This man is a very benign ruler, earning him the cognomen “Evergood” or “Generous”.
Reduced unrest. Reduced tax income.

*Fair Haired* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Born. Gives cognomen Hårfager)
This man has long, flowing hair, giving him good looks and showing his health, and earning him the cognomen “Fair Haired”.
Increased hit points and influence.

*Bloody weapons* (Norse or Nordmannaland, Cognomen Bloodaxe)
The merciless style of warfare adopted by this man has given him great success in battle, but the same methods are less valued by his vassals.
Increased command or morale. Increased unrest.

*Pilgrim* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Jorsalfar)
This man has visited the holy city and earned the cognomen “Jerusalem-farer”.
Christian conversion.

*Harsh rule* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Hardråde)
More than most rulers, this man understands that authority should be exercised endlessly. His strict rule has earned him the cognomen “Hard Ruler”
Increased law. Decreased happiness.

*Wise* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Wise)
This man is famed for his wisdom.
Increased management and/or influence.

*Poor* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen Barefoot)
It would seem the gods have cursed this man with poverty.
Reduced income.

*Oath of Poverty (Gaelic. Cognomen the Poor)
This man has undertaken an oath of poverty. He donates most of his money to the church and cares little for the income of his community.
Reduced income. Christian conversion

*Partier* (Norse or Nordmannaland. Cognomen “Gille”)
This man lives for the parties he throws and is quite famous for them. He is simply referred to as “Party” by those who know him.
Decreased management. Increased influence.

*Solid as a rock* (Norse or Norwegen. Cognomen Stonewall)
This big man refuses to lie down.
Increased hit points and/or morale.

*Disfigured* (All. Cognomen the Hunchback)
This man was born with a severe disfigurement. Only his great standing allows others to see through it to the man inside, and some never manage that.
Reduced influence.

*Redhead* (Norse. Cognomen the Red)
This man has bright red hair.
Increased influence.

*Short* (Normandy. Cognomen Curthose)
This man is not very tall. Others call him “Short-Trousers” behind his back.
Decreased influence.

*Great Defender* (Englisc. Cognomen Ironside)
This man is a very accomplished defender.
Bonus command in defense.

*Strong* (Sweden. Cognomen the Strong)
This man is very physically powerful.
Bonus hit points.

*Champion* (Gaelic. Cognomen the Champion)
This man is a skilled and fit individual fighter.
Bonus hit points.

*Experienced Warrior* (Norse. Cognomen Wartooth (which is the same as Hildetand and a bloody funny name))
The years have brought ever more respect for this man’s skill as a warrior and commander.
Command bonus.

*Vanquisher of Bulgars* (Byzantium or All. Cognomen Bulgar-Slayer)
This man has learned how to defeat the Bulgars through many campaigns.
Command bonus against Bulgars.

*Born in the Purple Room* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Purple-Born or Porphyrogenitos)
This man stresses the fact that he was born in the Purple Room of the palace, where legitimate children are born. Whether this automatically makes him legitimate is another matter.
Increased or decreased influence or something like loyalty or popularity.

*Believes in the Law* (All. Cognomen the Lawful)
A ruler should bring the law to his people.
Increased law.

*Broad-shouldered* (Norse or Svea. Cognomen Vidfamne)
The stature of this man earns him the cognomen “Wide-Fathom”.
Increased hit points.

*Student of Defence* (Byzantium)
Defence is the most important part of strategy.
Good Bonus on defence.

*Primsigned* (Norse)
This man has received a blessing from a Christian priest, but refuses to be properly baptised. This makes him something of a neutral party in the fight between Pagans and Christians.
0% conversion. Is anti-trait to Christian, Muslim and Pagan.

*”Archduke”* (Lotharingia. Should be faction leader)
This man is both archbishop of Cologne and duke of Lotharingia. Such a mix of the first and second estates puts great power into the hands of a single man.
Increased influence and management.

*Shi’ite* (Muslim)
This man believes that Ali was the righteous heir to Mohammed’s throne.
Unrest.

*Nestorian Thinker* (Byzantium)
This man believes that Christ was two persons, human and divine. The sect is named after Nestorius, who claimed never to have held such a belief, but was executed for it anyway.
Unrest

*Orthodox Thinker* (Catholic)
This man’s Christianity lies closer to the teaching of the Eastern Church than to that of the Pope in Rome.
Unrest.

*Catholic Thinker* (Byzantium)
This man bases his religion more on the teachings of the Pope in Rome than on the Patriarch in Byzantium.
Unrest

*Catharean Thinker* (Frankish or Catholic)
This man subscribes to a school of thought so deviant it has almost become synonymous to heresy. He considers the god of the Old Testament identical to Satan and the Demiurge, criticises the clergy, is opposed to oaths and considers women equals.
Unrest.
(this is the origin of the word kætter, if anyone is interested)

*Caulker* (Byzantium. Cognomen the Caulker or Calaphates)
This man is the son of a caulker, and while he is now elevated to a much higher position, he still knows enough of the trade to avoid being cheated by his own shipwrights.
Reduced ship building costs. Possibly increased unrest.
(Caulkers seal ships by putting old rope in between the timber. The Danish word is kalfatrer. Dictionaries tend to devote too much space to nautical terms, but sometimes it comes in handy.)

*Hates Christians* (non-Christians. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so called Son of God.
Bonus attack command against Christian factions, excluding those with both Christian and pagan buildings. Unrest in Christian cities.

*Hates Muslims* (non-Muslims. Maybe Cognomen Moor-slayer (Matamoros), at least for Asturias. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so-called Seal of the Prophets.
Bonus attack command against Muslim factions. Unrest in Muslim cities.

*Hates Pagans* (non-Pagans, including factions with both pagan and non-pagan religion as long as the general is non-pagan. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in-game)
This man has had enough of the primitive polytheists and their wicked ways.
Bonus attack command against pagans and factions with both pagan and non-Pagan buildings. Unrest in pagan cities.

Admiral, Assassin and Diplomat traits and ancillaries
*Erik the Red* (ADMIRAL ancillary Normannaland, 950–1003;)
This proud freeman and sailor has a way of getting in trouble that has given him a drive to find new places to live in peace from pestering "authorities".
Erik Torvaldson was the founder of the colony on Greenland and father of Leif the Lucky Erikson.
*Increased move speed at sea and/or line of sight*

*Good Wind* (ADMIRAL trait. Norse. Cognomen Weatherhat)
This man always has a good wind when leading his ships.
Admiral command stars or fleet move points.

*Jewish Translator* (Diplomat Ancillary, but there is a general ancillary of the same name. al-Andalus)
Recruiting the best for the task instead of those who share your views furthers understanding.
Increased influence. Anti-trait to translator, but better.

*Mozarab* (Diplomat ancillary. al-Andalus)
A usually loyal follower of a different religion.
Increased influence.



Edits:
Added "Porphyrogenitos" as alternate cognomen to Born in the Purple Room trait.
Added Merchant Sailor and Erik the Red to Ancillaries.
Considered putting things in alphabetic order, but was too lazy.
Changed Naked Trunk to Wiry.
Added religiously intolerant traits. The absence of Jew haters is intended. Who doesn't like Jews?
Added traits and ancillaries for admirals and agents.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Cool, many of those will come in handy We've planned some traits etc. already but the exact details about how these things will look in the final version of the mod are still very secret though...

[skeletor]

Wow, thats a long and detailed list Archbaker, exelent.


-Skel-

[edyzmedieval]

Good list Archbaker.

Oh, about the Purple Room, you could write the original "Phorphyrogennetos" Greek name.

[Archbaker]

the exact details about how these things will look in the final version of the mod are still very secret though...

I imagine. I was just compiling a list of my ideas.

you could write the original "Phorphyrogennetos"

I have generally avoided native cognomina because they are hard to distinguish from ordinary surnames, and it makes the trait description longer when it has to explain what the cognomen means. Porphyrogenitos is a common way to refer to the man in English, though, so I added it back in.

[KingOfTheIsles]

Sorry if this has been answered, but is it possible to add more religions to the ones in BI? Or do we have to make do with only three?

[Ranika]

If I may, I'd like to throw in a number of ancillaries for suggestion, considering the British Isles seem a bit light.

Ancillaries
Some unique ones;
Faollan mac Cennetig (Eire, 980-1050; brother of Brian Boru, and a hero in his own right)
The young brother of an influential ruire, he is known for his ability to entice men into service for things other than wealth or loot; specifically, religious salvation and glory for one's clan. However, his hot-headed nature has given him the colloquial name Faollan, or Wolf, 'the Quarrelsome'.
Discounted cost to soldiers, increased troop morale

Garbhan mac Cronn (Alba, 880-940; vaguely related to Kenneth mac Alpin, supposedly; in any event, he was a Pictish monk-turned-chief, who ended up dying of the flu, to no one's surprise, but held a bit of clout during his lifetime)
Garbhan is a well-trained historian, monk, mssionary, and chief, of Pictish extraction. His loyalty to the king of Alba is impressive, but he seems constantly ill, and likely to die of disease, but not before converting a few pagans, most likely.
Command bonus, Christian conversion bonus

Other ancilliaries;
Androann (Welsh)
The defense of a fort is made more effective by a man who's life revolves around building and protecting such things.
Bonus to defense during a siege

Bard (Gaels and Welsh, perhaps even Saxons?)
The Celtic bard is not a dead tradition by any means. To the contrary, most Gaelic and Welsh courts have numerous poets, singers, and storytellers. This both impresses guests, and keeps the master of this bard entertained.
Influence bonus

Flath (Gaels)
Gaelic 'princes' and powerful chiefs are used to help administrate a region; it's always helpful to have a 'man on the ground', mingling with tribes and clans and local headsmen, to effectively manage a region to its full potential.
Bonus management, troop morale bonus

Gardener (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
Well kept gardens are good for entertaining guests, and help make a noble or aristocrat's manor or fortress look more artistic; even in the dark ages, one cannot underestimate the appreciation of natural beauty.
Influence bonus

Heralder (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)
A man who can recount the deeds of one's father, and forefathers, can be useful to impress, as well as show respect for one's family history.
Influence bonus

Ordinate of the White Oak (All British/Irish factions)
The dual-monastary of the White Oak was initially founded in Ireland, supposedly by St. Bride. The ordinates, both monks and nuns, of the White Oak spread throughout Britain, preaching and tending to the sick and the wounded; a necessity of the many wars that racked the area.
Public health bonus, Christian conversion, more soldiers heal after a successful battle

Surgeon (All British/Irish factions)
Dark age British surgery isn't very pretty, but it exists. Using a combination of natural painkillers, one's own hands, and various metal tools, many of which cut, a surgeun exists to try and keep a man alive, not necessarily all in one piece.
More soldiers heal after a successful battle, public health bonus

Tax Collector (I'd assume almost all)
A local treasurer has the duty of both keeping an eye on money, as well as ensuring no one thieves from it. He also has the second duty of organizing tax collection, and can be helpful in extracting money from those who 'forget' to pay their taxes.
Reduce corruption, increased tax income, happiness penalty, law bonus

Corrupt Tax Collector (Again, I'd assume nearly everyone)
This treasurer is corrupt; a thief. He either embezzles, or aides in the embezzlement of taxes, and manages to hide these thefts from his superiors.
Increase corruption, decrease tax income, happiness and law penalties

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sorry if this has been answered, but is it possible to add more religions to the ones in BI? Or do we have to make do with only three?

It's indeed possible to add more religions, and you can expect to see 7 in our mod if I remember correctly.

[Archbaker]

I can't know if our developer friends have a whole lot of Scottish ancillaries, but if my humble list is any indication then these will come in very handy.

Gardener (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)

Definately Muslims as well, or at least al-Andalus. I don't know so much about the Abbasids.

Heralder (All British/Irish factions, probably a number of European factions)

Isn't that just herald? Mr. Longman seems to think so.
Anyway, I think all European Catholics should have one. The Norse had skalds (or rather some funny word I can't remember right now, but which was usually part of the office of a skald) for that job in most of the period.

7

Let me guess:
Norse (heathen) paganism.
Magyar paganism.
Orthodox Christianity
Catholic Christianity
Judaism
Islam
Irish Christianity?

I'm sure I didn't get them all right

[Meneldil]

You did not

Considering we may have as many as 10 religions, we might add a few more later.

[GoreBag]

Irish Christianity?

More often known as Celtic Christianity. The Men of Alba will partake in this cult as well, at least until King Malcolm marries a princess from the south end of the island (which can't happen in RTW...).

[Ranika]

If we're going to do things like Celtic Christianity, why not Asturian Christianity as well? Celtic Christianity was not in disunion with the church of Rome, it was merely autonomous; it held the same beliefs and bowed to the will of Rome, but due to isolation, it operated, more or less, with a great deal of freedom, and had its own rituals (such as giving mass in a Gaelic or local language {since Celtic Christians actually inhabitted quite a part of Europe at one time} instead of Latin). So did the church of the Asturians. I don't object to the use of them, I think it adds a bit of flavor. However, I will note, if you do use this, it should not just exist in Ireland and Britain; Celtic missionaries were present in most of Europe, and there should be some initial scant amounts of Celtic Christians in most of western and some of eastern Europe. While I do like the idea of some factions being able to select these churches and rites, I'd recommend to also allow them Roman Catholicism (any British faction should have access to either church, as they often existed interchangably, and even in Ireland there was a Roman rite minority in Leinster, though no Roman rite Catholics existed in any major numbers elsewhere on the island for a few centuries).

I would also recommend the Coptics, who are, in my opinion more worthy than either (though if you can do both Celtic and Asturian Christianity, along with Coptic Christianity, that'd be great). The Copts were clearly a very important group, and were not in union with any church (though today they've had movements toward unity with the Roman Catholic Church; at the least, greatly improved relations). They were completely indepedent, and more than once, the Orthodox Church was rather vehemently opposed to them. For those unaware, the Copts inhabited Egypt, mainly, but Coptic churches exist in many places, but mainly Egypt.

Also, be aware of when the Orthodox and Catholic churches actually seperated. It was 879 that Patriarch Photius of Constantinople and Pope John VIII initially had the divergent arguments that would ultimately lead to schism. However, the schism itself didn't fully consumate until 1054 under Patriarch Cerularious. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have Orthodoxy; like the Celtic and Asturian, and other rites, there were specific traditions associated with it.

However, there were a lot of rites like that, and you need to focus on the major ones. The most widespread in Europe were the Roman, Orthodox, and Celtic rites. However, there were also (large groups of) Asturians, Copts (actually not that large, but rather influential), Armenians, Maronites (Syrians and nearby Christians), and Chaldeans. There is a catch all term for eastern Christians (discluding the Armenians and Copts) from the period that appears sometimes in church literature, being Arabenan, from 'Arab'. These are mostly various local Catholic rites, but also some Orthodox rites, and indepedent churches as well. It's just a catch all for the numerous churches and rites in Arabia and other portions of the east.

[Archbaker]

That was really informative, Ranika. Thanks for enlightening me.

Mine are just guesses of course. Maybe there is no Celtic Christianity.

Anyway, I would like to point something out. The way religion works in the game is that you have to maintain a correspondence between official religion and the religion of your subjects, at least on the local scale.

If a region is split between Christianity and Zoroastrianism flowing in from neighbouriong regions, then you have to replace churches with whatever Zoroastrians have, improve your conversion rate or go and smite the Zoroastrians.
Conversely, by spreading Christian influence among the Romans, you can force them to loose areas to rebellions or devote resources on happiness or conversion.

This would be a weird thing to happen with Asturian influence on Franks or vice versa. In fact, Asturians and Franks should have very little reason to be at permanent war with each other as long as they havde more obvious enemies.
The same goes for most variations within Christianity, and possibly between pagans as well. There is no reason for happiness in a Roman Catholic area to decrease because it is next to a Celtic or Asturian one.
Based on that, I would advise against religions that are this similar. But maybe you already made that decision and I am way off on what your religions are.

Maybe you have Shia´and Sunni Islam, which are somewhat more schismatic, yet both viable for both Caliphates (who had the occasional Shi'a ruler).
Maybe you have a native Khazar religion as of yet undisclosed. Or native Persian. Or Zoroastrianism. The possibilities are endless, but I cannot stop guessing. Seriously, I need help.

[Ranika]

This would be a weird thing to happen with Asturian influence on Franks or vice versa. In fact, Asturians and Franks should have very little reason to be at permanent war with each other as long as they havde more obvious enemies.
The same goes for most variations within Christianity, and possibly between pagans as well. There is no reason for happiness in a Roman Catholic area to decrease because it is next to a Celtic or Asturian one.
Based on that, I would advise against religions that are this similar. But maybe you already made that decision and I am way off on what your religions are.

While it's true in a religious sense they didn't conflict, such differences did spawn culture conflicts, at least in Britain. Mind you, the Orthodox/Catholic split was based more on cultural complaints that came about due to their ritualistic doctrines (doctrines, which, themselves, came about through cultural behaviors in the region; a kind of circular process). Celtic churches inspired cultural behaviors that weren't always in tune with those around them, such as a kind of 'anti-tyrant' streak that made it rather prone to inciting anger toward more powerful monarchist systems. The Gaels used to call most European kings 'tyrar', from 'tyrannos', or 'tyrant' because of how much power individual monarchs could hold. While it was fine in Gaelic Britain and Ireland, which had elective systems and systems of checks and balances, more powerful monarchs were not a favorite of those who had been practicing Celtic Christian religion, but Celtic Christian morality that was taught by the religion. While the Roman Church itself had no trouble with the Celtic Church, the same can't be said of secular rulers dealing with the backblow of being surrounded by those embracing a Celtic moral culture that was, at best, distasteful toward them, and, at worse, flatly opposed to them.

The rites were, ultimately, based upon exemplification of the local culture in respect to Christendom. The Gaels and Celtic British were not overt monarchists or imperialists. While they had strong monarchies sometimes, they still were not favoring toward absolute monarchy or empire. Their rite of Christianity reflected that cultural belief. The rites spawned in the Roman empire had a favoritism toward stronger monarchies, and, as such, found more popularity among many European monarchs who had absorbed large amounts of Roman culture. As such, variants in Christianity shouldn't be seen as representing tension between the religions themselves, necessarily, though it can (Orthodox/Catholic split had strong religious tension, but still borne of local cultural problems), but more along the lines of culture war. Celtic monks mostly converted low people in most of the places they preached, and due to the moral considerations they carried, it might be reasonable to assume that people who had absorbed the morals they preached to be a bit unhappy with rulers who didn't share their beliefs (though would ultimately assimilate into their rulers beliefs). It doesn't matter if they recognize themselves as 'Celtic' Christians, but more that they recognize what they see as proper Christian morality, and see their leaders as not following it.

In this vein, I'll note that the Asturian rite was a byproduct of Celtic missionaries in northern Spain, and was ostensibly Celtic in moral and cultural teachings, and having Asturians able to build Celtic rite churches is not inappropriate, since, at one time, it did hold rather close ties to the Irish (and if one wants to carry over these relations into later kingdoms, this was the beginning of Spain and Ireland's very long running good relations, culminating during the 'Flight of the Earls', when many dozens of Irish nobles fled to Spain, and were given the lands of more disloyal, local nobles; the same thing occured in France, also based on relations originally culminating under Celtic missions, but they far more downplayed in the Frankish Empire, which was far closer to Rome culturally).

Some examples in differences between the doctrinal Celtic and Roman rites, and conflicts to come about from it (some with help from New Advent; I did a big paper on these things, but it's quite complex and takes forever to recall, so this is quicker);

Baptisms; there is no solid evidence, but it appears the baptism in Britain and Ireland was performed the same as in northern Spain; a single, full body immersion. A letter from the Pope Zacharias to Boniface said that a British synod (a Saxon one specifically, but no more specific than that) had forbidden any baptism except in the name of the Trinity, and had declared that "whoever omits the name of any person of the Trinity does not truly baptize but in falsity". This is congruent with the baptisms of northern Spain, and, due to the intercourses between the region and Celtic missionaries, it seems possible that they shared the same baptism originated in the same place, and was originated in the Celtic rite.

The tonsure (the pattern in which monks shaved their heads); the Roman tonsure is 'coronal', shaving a circular region in one's hair. However, the Celtic tonsure instead involves shaving the whole head in front of a line drawn from ear to ear. The Romans referred to this as tonsura magorum, referring to the method in which druids supposedly once shaved their heads, and was subsequently absorbed into the Celtic rite (or more descriptively, 'rites') of Christianity.

While much of Britain was probably like the Gallic church (which was, itself, by this time, like the Roman church) by this time (the Gallic rite had by this time been united with the Roman rite), Cornwall was reintroduced to Christianity after the pagan King Teudar, by missionaries from Ireland. Cornwall then had problems with the Saxon church, which was presumably closer to the Roman rite in the south. Indeed, there was an argument from the days of St. Aldhelm, into the 10th century, due to the presence of specific different rituals and beliefs in Cornwall, that were staunchly 'anti-tyrant'. While the existence of a staunchly Celtic church with wholely different rites is arguable, there was clearly a difference in the Gaelic-Celtic church, which was, by this point, introduced to most of Britain (except the southeast), and large portions of Europe; the arguments between the diocese in Cornwall and the Saxon bishops is a large marker of distaste between the two, though the argument appears largely political (not declaring eachother heretical, but rather, each saying the other was backward in customs and awkward).

The rite of the Scoto-Northumbrian Church falls in with the Celtic rites, as it originated in Ireland. It seems to have had some unique bits, but it worked in perfect concert with the Irish priests. While the Picts/Scots used the Roman tonsure, it seems any such little curiousities were outweighed by actual religious concerns. It experienced severe cultural disunity with the Saxons in the Roman rite, and arguments hinged on two things, explored in the next point.

Lax rulership versus lax clergy. In the Celtic rite, there was a very strict hierarchy and the duty of missionaries was quite plainly one of the most important parts of culture. Clergy held substantial clout, and rulers were expected to work with them, or even submit to their wisdom in many cases. The Roman rite put much weight on the power of a monarch, arguably too much for its own good, leading to numerous events where the papacy would be subverted by the power of secular rulers due to the clout given to them. In such places, clergy were not 'lazy', but they weren't often as hard working; they didn't have a reason to be, because they had such little power compared to the ruler's of the kingdoms they inhabitted.

The Book of Cerne. This book was of Northumbrian or Mercian origin; a large collection of prayers, hymns, stories, and poetry, for private use, associated with the name of Aethelwald the Bishop, possibly a Bishop of Lindisfarne (712-40), but perhaps a later Bishop of Lichfield (818-30). It is filled with Irish, Gelasian, and Hispano-Gallican matter, including poems and prayers of clearly Celtic origin. This book was considered inappropriate for church use by the southern, Roman rite Saxons, but fine for private consumption. However, some of the moral lessons within were not so popular with the kings of the Saxons, and, exercising their strength over clergy, had it disallowed for church use, though few actually libraries lacked at least some portions of the book.

In the Celtic Church, the chalice was prepared before the Introit, a very usual practice in both East and West in early times. It is still the Eastern practice, and is retained to this day by the Dominicans at low Mass, and in the Mozarabic Rite. At the time, this led to an argument between Irish and Cornish bishops, against Saxons and Frankish bishops.

In the Leabhar Breac there is a tract describing the consecration of a church. The ceremony is divided into five parts, the consecration of the floor, and of the altar with its furniture, the consecration out of doors, the aspersion inside, and the aspersion outside. The consecration of the floor includes the writing of two alphabets thereon. There are directed to be seven crosses cut on the altar, and nothing is said about relics. On the whole the service appears to be of the same type as the Roman, though differing in details, and if the order of the component parts as given in the tract may be taken as correct, in order also.

There are many native Irish hymns both in Latin and Irish. Of these, most no doubt were not intended for liturgical use, but rather for private reading, but a certain number were undoubtedly used in the services of the Celtic Church. In the "Liber Hymnorum" there are hymns by Patrick, Columba, Gildas, Sechnall, Ultan, Cummaim of Clonfert, Muging, Coleman mac UiClussaigh, Colman Mac Murchan, Cuchuimne, Oengus, Fiach, Broccan, Sanctam, Scandalan Mor, Mael-Isu ua Brolchain, and Ninine, besides a few by non-Irish poets. The Bangor Antiphoner adds the names of Comgall and Camelac to the list. Of the twelve hymns given in the latter, eight are not found elsewhere, and ten are certainly intended for liturgical use.

Why are the native hymns unusual? By this time, most hymns were rather 'standard', and shared in most of the Catholic world. Only in Ireland, Britain, Britanny, parts of France, and Galacia and Asturia were Irish hymns used (though all of these places and many more used more standard Latin hymns). While most places had some local hymns (often about local saints), the sheer number of Irish hymns used over a wide distance suggests the presence of an autonomous rite.

While such things may seem minor to non-Catholics (or non-practicing Catholics), in the shoes of devout, practicing Christians of the dark ages, these are rather disuniting things. Coupled with the cultural behaviors encouraged by individual rites, there is a great chance for disconcernment. Would they be more likely to ally against heathens? Of course, but that doesn't mean they'd necessarily be happy with one another either.

[Csatadi]

Were the Bulgarians Christians or not?
If not, they are pagans, too.

[Meneldil]

Actually, here are the religions planned

Catholicism
Orthodoxism (if we can trigger it)
Judaism
Shia Islam
Sunni Islam
Viking Paganism
Slav Paganism

I was thinking among the line of adding a eastern christianism, maybe the Copts or the Nestorians, but I'm not really sure these would be useful gameplay wise.

[Ranika]

A little addendum idea to my above rant;

What about when upgrading 'local' churches for Celtic Christians, you are given the option to change the church to the Roman rite (and then on follow the Roman rite with that church), or keep it Celtic? That way, one could change their church over time if Roman rite Christians grew more prevalent in the region. There was a noticeable improvement in relations between places that 'converted' to the Roman rite.

Also, of Orthodoxy, in the same way, you don't necessarily need to 'trigger' it; the eastern Christians in Greece and the like had their own rites and concerns. While ostensibly in the same church initially as the western Christians, their disconcern with one another was pretty intense, which is what led to the schism anyway.

Eastern Christians, I'd recommend Copts or Arabenan or Nestorians; Copts maybe, because Coptic churches were allowed to persist for some time to keep populations pacified, and as a kind of safety to measure to avoid enraging the Christian kingdoms too much (which did work for a while). However, they also did that with other rites; if it came to it, could just have a catch all 'eastern Christianity'.

Of religions to add, I'd suggest eastern/north Africian paganism (which still persisted for a little while in some regions; if not this, some other form of paganism, there still quite a number of pagans in different places, including Britain, but the remaining British pagans were heavily affected by Norse paganism, so that can be used there for some initial remaining pagans), Celtic Christianity, and some form of eastern Christianity.

[Archbaker]

What about when upgrading 'local' churches for Celtic Christians,

I would suggest making any faction that could have two religions (Danmark, Nordmannaland and Svea Riket spring to mind) the option of building two kinds of religious buildings like the Goths and Romans in BI.
Edit: Wording.

That way, the player has some more freedom and the fact that different areas within some empires could have different religions is represented.

Now on to other things.

Is it possible to change the options when you conquer a city? For instance "take slaves" could be limited to Norse and Muslims, and Vikings might be given the ability to sack without being in a horde.

And yet other things.

I was looking at Asturia's tech tree, and I realised that the Foot Knight should be based off the Hidalgos and not the Reales, so I suggest this:
Weaponsmith's guild (Foot Hidalgos [sword, round shield]),

I also came to the conclusion that the throwing axe-man was not really historic.
It can represent the existence of a rarely used throwing weapon, of course, but that is not really in the spirit of the other units made for Vikings and Fanatics.
But I am not sure what to replace them with. Possibly just change their name to Visigothic Nobles and let them keep the throwing axes. Their style of dress would be similar to that of Caballeros Reales, but from an earlier period with less armour.

[Afsin]

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[Csatadi]

What about Steppe Shamanism? For the Bulgars, Magyars & Khazars?

As you said. The Khazars were pagans, too, only the leaders got the Judaism.

[Meneldil]

I thought the extend of the spread of Judaism into the Khazar Khagnate was still unknown.

[Afsin]

[removed]

[Archbaker]

Apparently there is some evidence of burial rites and other customs changing around the time of the conversion, and they did have a good deal of synagogues, so I don't think it can be said exactly how many were Jews outside the social elite.

I've only done internet research, mind you, so maybe you know things I don't.

[Afsin]

[removed]

[Rodion Romanovich]

The tolerance could be depicted by giving the khazars the possibility of choosing between shamanism and judaism, perhaps also the possibility to choose between more religions. Anyway, I read that the khazar shamanism was strongly influenced by confusian and other ideals, and was very different from most other forms of steppe shamanism.

[edyzmedieval]

You have our Byzantine tech tree.
Khazar and Bulgar tommorrow.