Units

[edyzmedieval]

So, I spotted some things.
For the Bulgar tech tree:

Zera - indeed, Horse archers
Imnik - you could call them Chimnik also

Also, I'll give you some sneak info:

Khorasan Iranian Guard(I haven't seen them)

For the Abbasid Caliphate. Very powerful units, they were the "Varangian Guards" of the Caliphs.

We have them for the Khazars.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks. The Abbassids are indeed not a finished tech tree. In fact, the Abbassids are the only we haven't finished yet, but the others may still have some misspellings etc. in the names, however the unit lists are ready for those. I don't think the khazars should have this Iranian guard, but they have Khazar royal guard or similar, which is a very good spear-armed infantry force of high quality but limited in numbers due to it's high cost, and was recruited from Khwarazm in the Iran area. In fact, I think that could be the very same unit, so the unit can hopefully be used by both mods. I'll have a look and perhaps change the name to Khorasan Iranian Guard.

[edyzmedieval]

I've found about the Khorasan Iranian Guard in a huge old book, regarding the Middle Ages.

It says that they were recruited from the Khorasan region of Iran, and they acted as a personal guard of the Abbasid Caliphs, just like a Varangian Guard. Not much info about them though(regarding their equipment)

[Archbaker]

I think most of the Abbassid professional soldiers were from Khwarazm. At least the core troops.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, so then it's the same unit The name Khorasan Iranian Guard sounds better, at least for the Abbassid version of the unit. Anyway, in Khazar they were heavy spearmen or heavy swordsmen, which is what they'll be in AOVAF - there are two units of the type.

[sera]

*Hates Christians* (non-Christians. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so called Son of God.
Bonus attack command against Christian factions, excluding those with both Christian and pagan buildings. Unrest in Christian cities.

*Hates Muslims* (non-Muslims. Maybe Cognomen Moor-slayer (Matamoros), at least for Asturias. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in the game)
This man has had enough of the followers of the so-called Seal of the Prophets.
Bonus attack command against Muslim factions. Unrest in Muslim cities.

*Hates Pagans* (non-Pagans, including factions with both pagan and non-pagan religion as long as the general is non-pagan. Intended as extra level to existing intolerance traits in-game)
This man has had enough of the primitive polytheists and their wicked ways.
Bonus attack command against pagans and factions with both pagan and non-Pagan buildings. Unrest in pagan cities.

Nice list Archbaker!

One comment on these though. Hate, if too strong, blinds and could quite likely have an adverse effect on command realistically. I'd suggest a morale increase and possibly an attack bonus, but a defense malus as an alternative.

[The Stranger]

guys i'm almost finished reforming all units...but i really need you to decide on the final weapon layout and on how we're going to do upkeep, hp and recruitcost

[Rodion Romanovich]

The recruitment costs etc. depend on how the income of the settlements will be, so it's hard to tell at this time what exact costs we'll have, and if I said something now we'll most likelyt need to multiply all values with either a constant, or make them the logarithm of their values, or the exponential of their values (sorry for being too mathematical ). In clear text: either all will become cheaper or more expensive, or all cheap will become more expensive or all expensive will stand out less from the rest etc. I think it's easiest to start from settlement income and then balance units after that, rather than the opposite, due to hardcoded limits. But the settlements aren't finished yet... So I suggest you just don't bother editing the recruitment costs yet, it'll just mean a lot of work that has to be redone. How much of the unit combat stats have you done so far?

[The Stranger]

i think 50 to 60 percent i hope to get 90 at the and of this week

[Archbaker]

Nice list Archbaker!
One comment on these though. Hate, if too strong, blinds and could quite likely have an adverse effect on command realistically. I'd suggest a morale increase and possibly an attack bonus, but a defense malus as an alternative.

Hate definately isn't a very productive emotion most of the time, but I assumed this hate would have let the generals to dedicate themselves to fighting the objects of their hate.
I don't think you can say how performance in any field is "realistically" influenced by hate, but I assume that you imagine a general who hates his opponent too much to understand their ways, opposite of the general with a turncoat ancillary who gets improved command because he understands the enemy command structure better.

I don't really have any preferences for this. I think the decision should be based on what will nake for the best gameplay and leave it to the developers.

What a lot of words to say so little, eh?

[skeletor]

I think hate "faction" wold be really cool to add, and it should then be in a positive way when fighting them.

Like "Hate Vikings" to british general, makes them more dedicated to win battles, and study how to defeat them. you could just edit the bonus fighting "faction" wllready ingame..

-Skel-

[Csatadi]

Some ancillaries:

Táltos (Magyar) pagan priest see also the tech tree
He cures the people, tells the future and keeps the contact with the spirit world.
+1 influence, +1 public health, BattleSurgery 10 [half of the usual]

Turda, unique (Magyar) 855-900
He is the head táltos and soothsayer.
+2 influence, +2 moral

Botond, unique (Magyar) 930-970
Little-statured but mighty warrior who was able to break with his axe the gate of Constatinople.
Reduced unit cost, increased troop morale +1

Note: the Regös written by Archbaker is not related only to paganism.


Shaman (Bulgarian)
He cures the people, tells the future and keeps the contact with the spirit world.
+1 influence, +1 public health, BattleSurgery 10 [half of the usual]

Bo Kolaber = A warrior shaman who blesses the warriors before combat. (Bulgarian)
I didn't find other sites about this type of shamans.

I suppose Bulgarians may choose between the Christian and Shamanistic religion. In this case these shamans aren't compatible with Christian priests of course.


Khazar religion
I think the Khazars may build muslim temples and pagan shrines and the people get bonuses from them. But the leaders don't get priests from either, they are jews by religion.
The rulers are jews but jew synagogue would not give bonuses to the historically pagan or muslim people.
The easiest solution is if the family members get rabbies simply sitting in at least a level 2 city. But one-half or one-third chance than the other priests.
Another way if synagogues for Khazars are compatible with other temples but they do not give any bonuses.

[Archbaker]

I think the Khazars may build muslim temples and pagan shrines and the people get bonuses from them. But the leaders don't get priests from either, they are jews by religion.
The rulers are jews but jew synagogue would not give bonuses to the historically pagan or muslim people.

I don't understand why everybody has suddenly turned 180 degrees and decided that only the upper class were Jews.
For one thing, it is not known how many Khazars were Jews, but it is known that many came to follow certain Jewish customs and that their neighbours considered them a Jewish country.
For another, only the opinion of the ruling class really matters. Al-Andalus was full of Christians and Jews, but the main religious building in any given city would still be a mosque.

It is not an obvious conclusion that Khazars should have Judaism as their game religion. But too little is known about the Khazars to make an irrefutable conclusion to either side so you might as well choose what you feel will be best for the game.

I do not think it would be a bad idea to give Khazars the ability to construct Muslim, Christian or Pagan buildings, but I think it defeats the purpose of having Judaism in the game if they can't also build synagogues that have a bonus and a conversion rating.

[edyzmedieval]

Archbaker is right.
At Byzantium TW, the Khazar Khaganate has the ability to build mosques, synagogues and shamanic shrines.

Oh, Legio, do you mind if we use some of the traits and ancilliaries for Hungary?! We need research regarding these guys.....

[Rodion Romanovich]

You mean from the trait list in this thread? Sure

[Meneldil]

I don't understand why everybody has suddenly turned 180 degrees and decided that only the upper class were Jews.
For one thing, it is not known how many Khazars were Jews, but it is known that many came to follow certain Jewish customs and that their neighbours considered them a Jewish country.
For another, only the opinion of the ruling class really matters. Al-Andalus was full of Christians and Jews, but the main religious building in any given city would still be a mosque.

It is not an obvious conclusion that Khazars should have Judaism as their game religion. But too little is known about the Khazars to make an irrefutable conclusion to either side so you might as well choose what you feel will be best for the game.

I do not think it would be a bad idea to give Khazars the ability to construct Muslim, Christian or Pagan buildings, but I think it defeats the purpose of having Judaism in the game if they can't also build synagogues that have a bonus and a conversion rating.

Agreed, many ancient sources describe Khazar as a (or even *the*) Jewish country. The fact people were still muslims or pagans is irrevelant.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I for one haven't turned 180 degrees. I've always held and still do hold the opinion that the khazars should have synagogues, but I also think their religious tolerance should give them the ability to keep and upgrade other religious buildings in settlements they conquer, so as to avoid the different-religion-penalty on public order.

[Ranika]

Why not simply have more-or-less historic starting settlement setups? That is; have things built that should probably be there. In that way, you can have temples and mosques pre-built for the Khazars; the AI won't demolish and replace them with synagogues. You could have maybe one region with a synagogue, representing aristocracy and small parts of the population as being Jews. This would also let the Khazars spread Judiasm if they were to expand, but if a region had indigenous religious structures built, they wouldn't need to do anything.

[Rodion Romanovich]

That's pretty much what is intended, i.e. settlements will mostly start with buildings they probably had at the starting time of the mod.

[Nacheras]

Units of Al-Andalus Caliphate

First of all, you must realize that amirs or caliphas of Al-Andalus used mercenaries as a permanent army, and levies for unique campaign. Usually andalusy units are more disciplined than asturian units. They had a complete officer-command-tree (hope you understand my english), like modern armies, in front of the indisciplined feudal christian armies

Remember for the skins (sorry, I´ve not find images of this soldiers): moorish or berbers are dark brown, arabs soft brown (and good beards), andalusians mediterranian (like italians for example), and slaves similar to north christian kingdoms or even central europe inhabitants (blonde white).

- Mamaliks: A corpse of 5000 men raised by Al-Hakam I (796-822). They were slaves, majority european (look at those "arab skins", that are not suitable for these) and mercenaries. They were infantry and cavalry, loyal to sultan. Good morale and stamina. Sorry, don´t know more caracteristics, but I believe they are the toughted and elite infantry and cavalry (palatinan).

- Arab noble cavalry: Heavy noble cavalry, expensive and scanty. The proud descendent of the few autentic arab patrician families that conquered Spain from goths. Well armed, of course.

- Arab light cavalry: Light cavalry similar to other arab cavalries.

- Murtazika: Berber heavy infantry. Recruited from North Africa. permanent and good trained warrirors. Really moorish skin.

- Muttawia: Berber light infantry. Recruited from North Africa. Lower quality and more affordable cost.

- Muyahids: Recriuted from North Africa and other parts of islamic world. Faith warriors, called by the jihad against infidels. Excellent morale and stamina. If could be possible, they would receive a boost of morale if they combat christian or pagan.

- Andalusian cavalry: Medium cavalry of spanish noble muslims. Mainly nobles. Not as good as arab nobles but less expensive. Quite fast and good balance between armour and cost. They had coat of mail (mudarra), a long lance (rumh) and a round shield (turs). They use a high saddle, like christians, that gives them stability but limits their movements. Low stirrups.

- Berber cavalry. Light cavalry. Fast, very fast. Poorly armoured (properly said, no armoured). Javelins thrown and sabre. No goods for charge, like are arab noble and andalusian cavalry. They wear an oval shield called "daraka". Low or plain saddle and short stirrups: speed and manouverability

- Rigal: Andalusian line infantry. Completed balanced infantry. Not excellent in any item but good in all of them. They wear javelin (mazarik), spear and round shield. Not mail coat. They form in phalanx-like or shieldwall-like formation (OK, could be not so effective), are disciplined and good morale.

- Rumat: andalusian bowmen. Pay attention: they use the frankish big bow, not the small arab one (andalusians were influenzied by european military uses). You can say they are average archers, but with good range (similar to the frankish archers). Not armoured.

- Andalusians used catapults and rams.

- Navies used similar ships to other muslim kingdoms

Abu-Bakr al Turtusí describes the andalusian tactic: a infantry line, stayed static with a land-knee and shield and spear wall, protecting the bowmen behind them. When the cristians approach, they throw at them arrows and finally javelins. After weakened in that manner enemy lines, they execute a oddly tactic: opened by middle the line and let pass the carge of cavalry.

[Nacheras]

I have seen now the list of Archbaker. it´s quite different.
I assume I could be wrong, but I think negroes and camels arrived at Spain with the african invasions: Almoravids the earliest around 1086 (only 11 years before the teoric finish of AOVAF).

Here are some building in Al-Andalus (i´m not sure if this must go here or in "teach tree" thread)

- Dar assikka: coin factory
- Kaisariya: Great Bazaar.
- Madrassa: school. Similar to academy of RTW.
- Madinat: Palace
- Aswak: commercial suburb
- Mosque. Not only religious building but also superior school and library.
- Kantara: aqueduct

The coin was the dinar

Good farmer development, similar to bizantinum and superior to frankish or asturican. Andalusies inherited and improved latifundia roman system.
Excellent trade development, also ports and roads. Roads are similar to the roman higways in quality and were places at the same places.

Mines were underexploted to roman times: roman wasted most of mineral resources of Sapin, and arabs were unexpert at this area. Gold near Toledo, Silver at Murcia and Corduba, Mercury at Corduba. Iron north of Sevilla. Tin at Algarve (south coast of Portugal).

[Nacheras]

One more post

some links to pages with images of muslim medieval warriors. To help the artists:

http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html

http://www.maderuelo.com/siglo12/vestimenta/escudo.html

[Nacheras]

Archbaker unit list:

"I just spent a couple hours compiling information from various Spanish sites. Then I found all the same on Wikipedia in English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
Look at Section three and five. I cannot find similar informaton to chapter five in any other language, including Spanish, so I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, it is our best source for now. It is also not particular to Asturian soldiers, but it IS true of Castilla-León and we know that the ruling class of Asturies were Visigoths.

A small summary of the military information:

Peones: Litt. “Peasants”. Levies of either archers or spear/short sword

Royal Knights: Nobles with Visigoth ancestors. Wear gothic armour with “braceplate” (breastplate?) and use lance, javelins, sword and kite-shaped shield. Also used double-axe.

Caballeros Hidalgos: Lesser nobles (Don Quijote was one). Leather armour, javelins, spears, sword and Moorish-style shields.

Caballeros Villanos: Litt. “villains” or “serfs” Non-noble knights. Militia version of the hidalgo.

Generally:
Helmets are Norman-style.
Infantry use short single-bladed swords and cavalry use long double-bladed ones.
Shields are round or kidney-shaped except for royal knights.
Armours are mostly leather reinforced with scales, but maille exists (royal knights and possibly hidalgos should wear it), no horse barding.
The double-headed axe is a 30 cm melee weapon balanced for throwing. I imagine it mostly a footman’s weapon and used like Norse axes, although it has an extra head. Since there will be throwing axes in BI a unit could throw a few before closing in.

The late-period triggered super-cavalry could be these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago

Thoughts:
As far as I can see, Asturia should have weaker, but more flexible heavy cavalry than the Franks. I think that is enough to give the faction something to hang its hat on on the military side of things. All or most infantry troops should be either levies or foot knights, and I think I would give infantry levies a bonus in mountains if possible."

Asturian units

- Milites palatii: bodyguard to the king and royal house princes and famous noble generals (magnates) usualy related to royal line. Equal to “royal knights”. Heavy cavalry well armoured (mail coat, etc). Excellent morale and stamina. Very, very expensive if the tech tree allows its recruitment

- Nobiliores: noble cavalry. Medium cavalry very similar to andalusian cavalry. Lance, sword or mace and adarga (triangular shield). Medium armoured (mail coat). Able to front combat spearmen if they are not well armoured. Their success usually relies on charge-flee-charge tactic. Quite expensive.

- Infanzones (I think more accurate than "hidalgos", that is a later name): light cavalry of less-noblemen. Short stirrups and great manouverability. The backbone of Spanish Christian cavalry. Fast but not well armoured. Lance and shield. I really doubt if they were or not javelins. They should not be very expensive. Good for rear attack, harass bowmen and skirmishers or pursue fleeing enemies. Not suitable for charge a line or melée.

- Vilanii equites: light cavalry of not-noblemen. Their mainly weapon is the javelin, and they wear a sword. Ancestors of “Spanish jinetes” of MTW. Not armoured, very fast. Weak in hand-to-hand combat even with weakest units, but you can give them a decent plus for charge. I´m not sure if they wear sield. Short stirrups. Cheap.

- Pedones or Peones: Line spearmen infantry. Vassals and noble serfs recruited by feudal debts. Leather helmet, wood shield, and leather coat. The mail coat were not usual to infantry. Not good morale nor good stamina. Pedones are not good line infantry, but quite cheap due to they are forced recruitment. Able to stop medium or light cavalry. insufficient for the rest. An asturican general can only trust in them if they are overnumbered.

- Urban militia spearmen: Line spearmen recruited from local councils. Better experience, morale and stamina than pedones. Very similar, but with longer spears and could be slightly better armoured. They should result more expensive and later to recruit in tech tree, due to they only exists at important towns.

- Bowmen: I only know their existence. Slingers: I only know their existence. I have no details for moment, but you can assume that Bowmen and slingers are non armoured, fast, not good morale, cheap units.

With no clear historical base, I think could be interesting to reflect the existence of mountain men units in north of Spain serving at Christian armies, mainly at the beginning of the game. Basque warriors and/or Asturian mountain tribesmen can be added as swordmen or light fast spearmen, with no armour and little or not shield, but good morale and excellent stamina. And not very expensive. Units that will be obsolete along the game due to their lack of armour and discipline, but that can provide asturian player of good cheap infantry at the beggining.

Asturians used rams and catapults, but less quality than andalusians
Ships similar to Frankish.


Asturians, later leonese and Castilian, used to make fast raid expeditions, copied to Moorish, called “algarada”, with mainly, if not total cavalry armies. They attacked by surprise border or even inner andalusian towns in order to sack them and sometimes destroy its buildings.

Asturian army, except for light cavalry, is inferior to andalusian army in composition and discipline, mainly at beginning of game. So, to balance it (in other words, to avoid andalusians kickass christians in first 10 years), you must remember that christian general were weak about management, but strenght in command (and ambush or sight line) and usually in loyalty. And you should improve the morale of christian troops with the religion or other items, to improve their abilities. Andalusian generals have good management and influence, average loyalty (in fact the civil wars in the caliphate first century allowed christians to survive) and varies in command from low to good command. Except for muyahids, their morale were not usually improved by religious facts or traits.


I have read more about the caliphate and were really a negros personal gard to the calipha. Were few and only to the serf of the caliph, so I think they´ll be similar as “varangian gard” of MTW: expensive, good morale and stamina, swordmen and later in tech tree.

[Ranika]

I'll add that Britons had at one time fled to Asturia from the Saxons, and were given lands in the mountains in the region; if you do have an Asturian 'hillmen' unit, perhaps it should appear to have slightly Brythonic weapons (long shields or short tapering swords of some sort, or maybe just Asturian stuff with a few javelins, fighting in a manner not very far removed from Romano-British). It's just a thought.

[Nacheras]

Briton influence were not important in north spanish history, but certainly could have the "mountain men" similar caracteristics to galic warriors, due to they are descendent of pre-roman iberic population.

[Nacheras]

Btw, the unit I called "urban militia spearmen" has a latin and more accurate name. You can call it "concilium militia" (militians of local town councils).

[Archbaker]

Listen to what Nacheras says. He definately knows a lot more than I.

[Nacheras]

You done well, Archbaker, but I have access to original spanish history books!

[Nacheras]

New addenda: the unit I called "milites palatii" is named also as "magnates palatii" due to it was composed by high nobles (magnates) and their selected bodyguards (usually famous and toughted warriors). If you like more that name you can use it. The artist can do their best with them, due to they are the idealistic pre-knightly heavy cavalry, quite similar to frankish noble heavy cavalry, but remember that Asturias is a poor kingdom compared to frankish empire or andalusian caliphate, so it must be a very expensive unit to reflect the real lack of that kind of units in asturian armies (usually only the king and princes escort, if the kingdom grows, could represent the raise of high nobility, as in other parts of Europe).

Some links of spanish warriors images and other medieval images. I´m afraid of mostly are later of IX century, but could be they help you:

http://leodegundia.blogspot.com/2005...evales_17.html

http://www.monografias.com/trabajos/...medieval.shtml

http://www.historiaviva.org/es/medieval.shtml

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cantigas/

http://sepiensa.org.mx/contenidos/hi...a/libros_2.htm

http://www.planetadirecto.com/FichaP...ogle_ejercitos

http://images.google.es/imgres?imgur...LG:es%26sa%3DN

Not much enought, but I am still searching

[Archbaker]

hope you understand my english

Perfectly, but if you should ever have trouble I can translate for you. I'll need to get my internet connection at home before I can translate big portions of text, though, as I can't do that without having references and dictionaries ready. I'll be set in a week or so, but I don't think it will be necessary, anyway.

Briton influence were not important in north spanish history, but certainly could have the "mountain men" similar caracteristics to galic warriors, due to they are descendent of pre-roman iberic population

What do you think of the Visigothic throwing axe-men? Fact or fiction?