Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 444

Thread: Units

  1. #91
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Actually, the leine as clothing of aristocracy argument has been a bit outdated (though it still floats around a bit). 'Aristocracy' generally came to mean anyone who wasn't a saer-stock (slave) or daer-stock (temporary slave). However, I know Norse-Irish were considered 'unbecoming' of wearing a leine (that would be, Ostmen mercenaries, some still wore it anyway, but in Irish service they were usually disallowed), and still wore trews (though St. Gorma says that they sometimes combined a leine and trews in Dublin, due to their misunderstanding of the culture).

    However, this may be a chance for a skinning difference; the Dal Riadans/Scots did still consider the fiennach (freemen, but not wealthy) below aristocracy, and they did wear trews (but often with a leine, solely because of how cold the region was). Since trews are skin tight, it should be easy to skin them on the same model (I hadn't thought of it before, as I often forget that trews were still in use until about 1050, afterwhich we see almost only bare-legged Gaels). The only other unit that would have trews would be the Scottish variant of Soikernbannal in that case, and probably the Ostmen.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  2. #92
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The dark side
    Posts
    5,383

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Anyway, what do you think legio... shirts: brown and leatherstyle like the ones I made before, or something like the modern shirts (other patterns of course, but more varied, colors, patterns etc.)
    For scots and irish, or what faction do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    And the dats... javelins, small modern dart arrows, I don't know. halv a javelin maybe?
    Yes, half a javelin sounds good to me.
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  3. #93

    Default Re: Units

    Trews were worn in Scotland for quite some time after 1050; they were more popular in the colder regions, like you said. There is a passage in Blind Harry's Wallace where he describes how one man...ahem..."beshit his trews" in fear.

    How outdated is the "aristocracy argument"? The article I found was written in 2000.

  4. #94
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Not too outdated, but the usage of trews is mentioned far less after 1050 in Ireland, and is mostly a highland practice in Scotland by then (I should have clarified by what I meant as 'mostly' bare-legged; however, within a century we'd see 'lowlanders' who dressed as Normans did, with trousers and all), and even then, not generally among the warrior class or higher (who could afford bailla, robes, or warm leines). It comes from mistranslating 'arrae' as if it were 'arras'; 'arrae' is a slang term (from about 700-1200) meaning anyone who isn't a slave, but 'arras' is literally aristocrats.

    On darts, the average Gaelic dart is about 3/5 or 1/2 the length of a Celtic javelin, so a 1/2 length javelin works fine.
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-13-2005 at 20:44.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  5. #95
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    For scots and irish, or what faction do you mean?
    Just wondering what a poor old farmer would war for war. If not any protection, but some shirt, what kind of shirt? ranika? (for instance, white with blue stripes horizontal and vertical)

  6. #96
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Well, I think a consensus can be reached that the Irish would wear a shirt, probably dyed with saffron (giving it a yellowish color), the Scot would wear some skin tight trews (pants that stop before the ankle, so there'd be some bare-leg), with a similar shirt, not dyed with saffron though, so it'd be white or brown.

    More on trews; they're depicted on Irish and Scottish soldiers in regions with the most English influence; we've determined many sculptures, paintings, and statues were 'editted' to include what appears to be trews or toidha (shorts), as the Victorian English modesty dictated necessary, as evidenced by substantially later layers of stone being revealed, or the huge disparity between nearly identical pieces from places with less/no English influence. Another problem is that the Irish weren't all the same; some may have favored trews for a while longer, or had them more common (like Ruadrians), but unless there were some specific regional units that would favor them, I'd not use them on most, if any, Irish units, and only on Scottish levies.
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-14-2005 at 01:20.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  7. #97
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Okay here's todays sucker.

    1st attempt on the irish kernbannal


    Okay here's what I came up with today. Had to do something about the hair (as you see around his ears) so he didn't look like Lemmy in Motorhead
    Anyway, the shoulderpads is on, but I'm sure it's somehow is uncorrect; it isn't 100% eb, so if this is way off I'll change it. The piece of cloth might be somewhat loose as you see. Anyway that was not easy, so feedback would be nice before I take action. Didn't quite understand what you said about the pants and trousers for the scots, thought they never weared trousers.

    And the size of the darts. Ok?

    The pattern is hell to skin too, so that I'll do tomorrow. Suggestions for the patterning is that scottish has more blue and irish more green :) don't know about historical correctness, but the aestetic is more important to me, but I guess they will be somewhat different anyway.

    And the spot on the head; this appears on all of my skins, even the vanilla ones. Anybody else have it?

  8. #98
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Trews and trousers are different; trews are shorter and skin tight. Scots never wore trousers in this period. Trews are more like shorts, and were worn by lower classes in society. They would go below the knee, but above the ankle, and be skin tight (about half way down the calf should work), and only be on the Kernbannal and Soikernbannal units. The Irish Kernbannal look very well, though the pattern of the shield looks a bit elaborate for a 'peasant' soldier, though Gaels did take pride in their shields, so they wouldn't look as improvised as other militia shields (probably have a metal boss in the center); it's good enough I think, at the least. The Scot would look similar, but skin on some skintight trews (just one color, similar to the shirt) down to the mid-calf.

    I should also note, if possible, Gaels with spears should fight with them overhand, including on horseback. The Gaels called this the 'ancient style', and continued to fight this way until the 12th century, and even then still used it from horseback and with militias
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-14-2005 at 02:32.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  9. #99
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    The Irish Kernbannal look very well, though the pattern of the shield looks a bit elaborate for a 'peasant' soldier, though Gaels did take pride in their shields, so they wouldn't look as improvised as other militia shields (probably have a metal boss in the center); it's good enough I think, at the least. The Scot would look similar, but skin on some skintight trews (just one color, similar to the shirt) down to the mid-calf.
    Thanks, worked quite a bit with this one so I'm glad I'm not miles away.

    Understood the trouser-thing now, my english isn't bulletproof, so when you say trousers I think on the norwegian word for underpants. The shield was just to spice them up a little while they looked a little boring, but I agree it might be over the edge. I'll maybe give him a plain wooden shield with some contrasts. And will thighten up the cloak a little. You said good enough, any way to make him perfect?

    Is there any suggestions regarding spicing up the shirt a little bit? Tried adding som stiches and "buttons", but I just don't think it's enough.

  10. #100
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    I should also note, if possible, Gaels with spears should fight with them overhand, including on horseback. The Gaels called this the 'ancient style', and continued to fight this way until the 12th century, and even then still used it from horseback and with militias
    That would be really nice! I hope we can reqruit someone that can edit the behavour of the skeletons, then we could have a definition like fs_ancient_style

  11. #101
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    I think the shirt looks good, realistic and appropriate. The cloak looks good, but the brooch-clasp should be on the right side of it; other than that, and the shield looking a bit too elaborate, I think they look good.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  12. #102

    Default Re: Units

    That should be the left shoulder, no?

  13. #103
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Honestly, it may be, I confuse left and right in English (my English may look good on here, if I do say so, but I have friends to help my translation to English, and numerous dictionaries, though, I do sometimes confuse). However, I do believe it's usually the right; though some tribes are said to have done the opposite (probably as a mental thing; if fastened on the opposite side, it was usually because the body was being prepared for a funeral).
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  14. #104
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units



    Worked some time on these, mostly on getting the scarf right. Anyway I think the version I posted before might be nicer, so I'll maybe replace it (thoughts on this?). The patterns will be redone, the shields will be toned down in saturation and they will be made more different from each other in colours. Anyway i would like some feedback before wrapping these guys up.

  15. #105
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The dark side
    Posts
    5,383

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Worked some time on these, mostly on getting the scarf right. Anyway I think the version I posted before might be nicer, so I'll maybe replace it (thoughts on this?). The patterns will be redone, the shields will be toned down in saturation and they will be made more different from each other in colours. Anyway i would like some feedback before wrapping these guys up.
    If you make the kernbannal just like in this screenshot...

    ...but with the scarf looking like it does in the latest screenshot...

    ...I think that would be a perfect kernbannal!
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  16. #106
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The dark side
    Posts
    5,383

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    That would be really nice! I hope we can reqruit someone that can edit the behavour of the skeletons, then we could have a definition like fs_ancient_style
    The only problem with overhand fighting is that apparently you need to have the units have their spears pointing down when they're not being used. If you look at some screenshots of EB for example, you'll see that plenty of their troops have that. I don't know what you think about it but I think it's ok, although if it's too much work it can be skipped because after all it looks a bit weird with the spears upside down when they aren't used. What do you think?
    Under construction...

    "In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore

  17. #107
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    I think it looks very well done; of the overhand spear thing, I don't think it would detract if the spear were held upside down, it seems it'd be the way they would've held it anyway, considering it's how they'd fight with it.

    It also just occured to me, it'd need a rebel skin; that one can have the trews as well (like on the Scot).
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-14-2005 at 21:43.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  18. #108

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    Honestly, it may be, I confuse left and right in English (my English may look good on here, if I do say so, but I have friends to help my translation to English, and numerous dictionaries, though, I do sometimes confuse). However, I do believe it's usually the right; though some tribes are said to have done the opposite (probably as a mental thing; if fastened on the opposite side, it was usually because the body was being prepared for a funeral).
    Well, I looked up the breacan-an-fhéilidh, and it was fastened on the left, says Dealbhan. I don't imagine that it broke the rule; my money is on the left.

  19. #109
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Ah, then it should be fastened to the left, correctly. However, the alcadh (cloak) is fastened to the opposite side; that is, the full length cloak with hood. I may have simply confused the two.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  20. #110

    Default Re: Units

    Oddly enough, I've never heard of the Alcadh. A quick search in Dwelly's (which is seeing more use from the past few days than it has since its purveyance) reveals nothing; can you provide any synonyms for the alcadh?

  21. #111
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Try finicadh, roichadh (the roichadh is a woman's cloak, but it's more or less just a smaller alcadh), or feincha-fróinhan; the modern term I think is just clócachocoll (hooded cloak), but that's worn differently. The alcadh is a heavy wool cloak with a deep hood, a sub-cape, sometimes sleeves; it bore a plaid pattern, and was usually worn by aristocrats.
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-14-2005 at 23:11.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  22. #112

    Default Re: Units

    Ach. I found only cleòc and cleòcan...damn the differences between Irish and Scots Gaelic.

  23. #113
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    Confoundable then; in any event, it'd only be worn by aristocrats and retainers (general's bodyguards/generals/'ridire'). Everyone else would have the shorter, shoulder cloak, though archers would also have a hood on.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  24. #114
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Ok I'll finish this one now, but next I thought Soikernbannal would do.

    He will have a brown hood, shoulder cloak, brown longshirt like kernbannals, shoes to above the ancle, knife, but bowlength relative to the roman archer's unknown. So much like the kernbannal but with a hood.
    Or?

    (ps. will make the kernbannal shouldercloak more like the former one, just didn't look good the last one. fastned at center more or less.)
    Last edited by ScionTheWorm; 06-15-2005 at 10:16.

  25. #115
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    2,416

    Default Re: Units

    That sounds fine, except that the hood is part of the shoulder cloak; the hood should be the same colors.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  26. #116
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Allright this might be it

    Scottish and irish kernbennals (town militia; spears and darts)


    No mustache on scots for variety, else quite similar. Rebels will be like the scots with some difference in hair, pattern and pants. Sheilds lightly decorated, not as detailed as the first but not as plain as the second. Will make rebels much later; won't take long time but I'm too lazy to edit the txt-files and stuff for it now.

  27. #117
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    That sounds fine, except that the hood is part of the shoulder cloak; the hood should be the same colors.
    normal size on bows?

  28. #118
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    The only problem with overhand fighting is that apparently you need to have the units have their spears pointing down when they're not being used. If you look at some screenshots of EB for example, you'll see that plenty of their troops have that. I don't know what you think about it but I think it's ok, although if it's too much work it can be skipped because after all it looks a bit weird with the spears upside down when they aren't used. What do you think?
    I can't believe they must point down if we edit the 3d animations. I would believe if we can make the ancient style, we can make the spears point up. Or at least that seems logical to me.

  29. #119

    Default Re: Units

    If it really isn't possible,we could add a spearhed on both sides, and eliminate the problem

    Age of vikings and fanatics: Total War

  30. #120
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Norwegen
    Posts
    778

    Default Re: Units

    or no spearhead at all!!!

    no, good suggestion

Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO