Units

[Incongruous]

Hey guys we need more Englisc units at the moment thay have pitifully small army list.

Here is a list of what I think needs to be included.

Longbowmen. The Englisc who lived in south-west England were quite good a using the longbow and by the 11th century were considerd by all to be the best Longbowmen in the world.

Twelfhynde, these are freemen who are only Called up by the Earls, they are not as good as the more warrior like class of Thegns but they are good troops willing to fight for their own land.

Coerls, when the Twelfhynde are called up they bring with them their own retainers known as Coerls. These men are one up from the armoured Fyrd and are good troops . They are also deeply loyal to thier Earls and Twelfhynde and therfor in battle they would be willing to die for these men.

Butscarls-Look at my other posts further up the page.

Mounted Thegns, basic equvilent of early knights.

Mounted Housecarls, should be a very good and proffesional heavy cavalry
unit.

Important, make suer you don't forgrt. ALL ENGLISC UNITS MUST BE CLEAN SHAVEN EXCEPT FOR THEIR MUSTACHES!

[Ranika]

At the battle of Aill south of modern Castlebar in Mayo, in 896, the Irish poet Roiht recorded the Welsh mercenaries had soldiers called 'hesaelue' or 'hysalue'; they're described as swordsmen with shields, and carrying an axe, and wearing scale armor, with an 'elaborate' helmet; Maybe mercenaries or like an imitation housecarle maybe?

[Incongruous]

Interesting, could they possibly be Vikings?

[King Ragnar]

Important, make suer you don't forgrt. ALL ENGLISC UNITS MUST BE CLEAN SHAVEN EXCEPT FOR THEIR MUSTACHES!

Im not saying your wrong Bopa, but where do you get your sources for this? i would just like to read about this.

[Incongruous]

1. From contemporary art which depicts the Englisc as having only Moustaches, e.g the Beyoux tapestry.
2. Sidonius Appollinaris: Poems and Letters.
3. Transalation of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle-Bede.

[ScionTheWorm]

my common sense tells me that moustaches wasn't obligatory, only prefered.

I doubt that there wasn't a lot of people that was clean shaved or even had beards - so I don't think 100% of the units should have moustaches.

[Incongruous]

Well I mean verything can be debated, its your choice.

[skeletor]

Don't you think you are discussing the same names in diffrent languages here?
In Norwegian, hus means House, so i belive housecarle and a huskarl is actually the same thing, just spelled in diffrent languages. The hesaelue or hysalue are probably allso enturpretations of the same name, since the unit's are described with allmost the same equipment as the original huskarl.

Anyway, if both the vikings and the "english" factions should have them, they could be given their own names. Unless the unitslots gets filled up.

-Skel-

[King Ragnar]

Don't you think you are discussing the same names in diffrent languages here?
In Norwegian, hus means House, so i belive housecarle and a huskarl is actually the same thing, just spelled in diffrent languages. The hesaelue or hysalue are probably allso enturpretations of the same name, since the unit's are described with allmost the same equipment as the original huskarl.

Anyway, if both the vikings and the "english" factions should have them, they could be given their own names. Unless the unitslots gets filled up.

-Skel-

Yes i agree about giving them there own name and the way that it is spelt.

[Incongruous]

Oh I just did the whole Housecarl thing to ensure the Engglisc didn't end up having a unit called Husscarls.

[ScionTheWorm]

what do you think about making an unique unit for sameland in northern scandinavia? samic hunters or something

Edit:
Could possibly be the finnish unique

[Ranika]

Interesting, could they possibly be Vikings?

I had thought so at first, but they sent a translator named Aormae to deal with them during parlay; supposedly, Aormae's marketable talent was he understood the Welsh language fluently. They may have been mercenary vikings with a Welsh-speaking commander though. It's sort of stabbing in the dark, I admit, and it is vague, at best, but if you want to make a mild leap, I suppose, it could be used as some kind of Welsh infantry, or just maybe mercenaries available to the Welsh, or niether. Just throwing it out there. However, I'm pretty sure the name is a Welsh version of housecarle (if it was a Saxon influenced soldier) or huskarl (if they were viking mercenaries).

[Incongruous]

Weren't there Viking incursions into western Wales?
If so, you could make these guys recriutable only in Western Wales, sort of like an AOR unit. What do you think?

[Incongruous]

OooH, a freak Samic Hunter unit. Cool, that would be a nice touch.
But give thema more fearsome and freaky name

[Ranika]

Weren't there Viking incursions into western Wales?
If so, you could make these guys recriutable only in Western Wales, sort of like an AOR unit. What do you think?

That would be interesting. I hadn't thought of it; I was thinking more of the constant wars with the Mercians, then the raids on the Saxons, and thinking perhaps they picked it up from there, but it may have been from incursion to western Wales. I think an AOR unit for the Welsh would be nice, and considering it's all essentially theory there's a lot of flexibility of where they'd be available; this is probably just as correct as any. Further, it'd provide some interesting variety to the Welsh army. Would they be preferable as sword or axemen?

As an aside, I didn't mention the whole thing, but Roiht mentions other parts of the army composition (also, bare in mind things may be misspelled; Roiht was likely trying to transcribe Welsh words to the best of his understanding). I mentioned the particular soldier because I found it surprising. Also, keep in mind they were Welsh mercenaries at the employ of a flath (chief) in Connacht; however, they were not buanna (professional mercenaries), they were boruanna (professional soldiers moonlighting as mercenaries). They also had 'rherel' (regular soldiers, described as carrying spears), 'ardu' (levies), cluddefaddynion (essentially 'men who fight with swords', probably should be more like cleddyfaddynion, or just cleddyfcludwra; 'sword carriers'), 'myrchagloedd' (this is very close to marchogluoedd; just means 'cavalry'; they're described as using long-hafted axes), and 'miloore' (probably should be 'miloora'; Cornish soldiers, described as using shields and a 'shaigal', a warclub; essentially a wood shaft with iron bands pounded around the upper portion of the shaft). That isn't everything, but everything of much interest; particularly the milwra; could be a type of AOR unit in Cornwall for the Welsh, or perhaps as mercenaries (mioora-cafloog). It should be noted that they weren't poor or peasants; the club was just a cost effective weapon, and fairly useful.

Other Welsh names for soldiers;

Rhyfelwre/Rhyfelwyre ('warriors', in this period generally means part-time soldiers; probably used as skirmishers)
Milwre ('soldiers', professional soldiers/regulars, related to the Cornish term 'miloora')
Saethwre (archers)
Saethwrabhre (longbow archers)
Dynne (mercenary archers)
Dynneabhr (mercenary longbowmen)
Gwaywffynabwre (spearmen)
Bêrfelawre (pikemen)

[Incongruous]

So basically your saying they were a unit in an organised army.
So pehaps, let us asy that these Husscar like units, are derived directly from Viking Husscarls not Englisc Housecarls, this would mean having some king=d of Viking or at least Viking influenced community in Western Wales, along the coast. Perhaps then at the game start we could just have a small rebel provonce along the Western coast, representing a Viking sttlement or raiding camp where once conquered these Viking influnced Husscarl like units could be recriuted. An idea, what do you think?
Perhaps then also these Nordic like units could also be recritable of the eastern Irish coast close to Wales?

It would be quite interesting, allowing the "Celtic" nations to posess some heavy "Germanic" type troops, meaning that their not such a push over.

[Ranika]

So basically your saying they were a unit in an organised army.
So pehaps, let us asy that these Husscar like units, are derived directly from Viking Husscarls not Englisc Housecarls, this would mean having some king=d of Viking or at least Viking influenced community in Western Wales, along the coast. Perhaps then at the game start we could just have a small rebel provonce along the Western coast, representing a Viking sttlement or raiding camp where once conquered these Viking influnced Husscarl like units could be recriuted. An idea, what do you think?
Perhaps then also these Nordic like units could also be recritable of the eastern Irish coast close to Wales?

It would be quite interesting, allowing the "Celtic" nations to posess some heavy "Germanic" type troops, meaning that their not such a push over.

The Celtic countries already had heavy infantry (at least, the Scots and Irish; the Welsh seemed to have imitated their surrounders). The Gaels used Ridire long before vikings introduced themselves, and they're fairly similar to huscarls (and the Ridire routinely won against the vikings; I don't think 'pushover' really comes into it). I don't know how appropriate a viking settlement would be in western Wales at the time, maybe just a small rebel army. I'd not have them in Ireland; the Irish had Ridire, and they also hired Ostmen mercenaries, which would be the equivalent. Allowing them to the Welsh seems alright though.

The key changes the Gaelic militaries experienced after fighting the vikings was wider proliferation of chain armor (using it on more regular soldiers), and longer swords (typical Gaelic swords weren't that long), and the adoption of some other weapons and recruitment systems. It wasn't the introduction of heavy infantry. The Welsh probably had heavy infantry of some sort, but I don't know of it; however, it seems they probably imitated huscarl-type soldiers.

[Incongruous]

Hmmm...
Well, maybe these Hussacrl like units could have better morale or something, just to make them worth having?

[Ranika]

They should be for the Welsh only; do the Welsh have heavy infantry of any kind currently? They could just fill the need for heavy infantry for them. However, it seems like they would have some type of heavy infantry elite; I was thinking of Teulu, but they were mounted. There were Campwyrau, but I don't know if they were still used. The name is essentially 'heroes'; in the 700s they were described as wearing bronze scale armor (probably adopted from Romans, or a throwback to pre-Roman Celtic heavy soldiers); probably would be like heavy swordsmen. They could be 'regular' heavy infantry, and the AOR huscarl imitations could be 'elites', or have them on equal footing, but with different purposes. Give the hus's higher morale/attack, but give the Campwyrau the ability to raise allied morale (as much as the Welsh had developed into a more professional army due to Roman and other influences, they were still a hero culture in many respects).

[Incongruous]

Yep thats a sound idea.

[Ranika]

Are there any other potential AOR units? Really, anything to set the Welsh apart and give them a somewhat unique army is probably helpful. I recommend some Cornish soldiers (as stated earlier), possibly also as regionals for the Englisc though. A possible AOR for the Welsh would be Galweddyl Aulue; essentially Gaelic retainers in Dyfydd; light infantry/spearmen. It was once ruled by Gaels, and there was still a cultural sub-group there at the time, still. They would probably have trousers or trews though; maybe just use the Gaelic sleanaghta model (spearmen); it'd save model space, but still make use of the large unit space, and help give the Welsh a bit more variety; they'd be quite a cobbled faction with some AOR units, with imitation Germanic-style heavy infantry, and some Gaelic infantry (which they could then also get in Irish provinces), as well as Welsh soldiers like longbowmen and such.

[Incongruous]

No I'm not sure that the Welsh should be given any Englisc regional units, unless they conquer the Marches and receive them as an AOR

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay a little preview for yall. Sorry for lack of previews, we're progressing in the work, and I'm too busy making units instead of neat previews. When they come, it will be a bunch.


Irish and albaic ridire fighting, (WIP!)




Irish Soikernbannal and a Albaic Tuaghnaghta




Russian and norwegian warriors



Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

[Incongruous]

Haha! like the last one, could be a loading screen.

[Ranika]

No I'm not sure that the Welsh should be given any Englisc regional units, unless they conquer the Marches and receive them as an AOR

The Corns would be Welsh regionals then, not Englisc; the Corns were Britons, and they were still indepedent at the time, so that was an inverted statement; they would be Welsh regionals that the Englisc wouldn't get.

[King Ragnar]

My God those are brilliant i love the Albaic Tuaghnaghta, simply amazing keep them coming dude.

[Jarlabanke]

what do you think about making an unique unit for sameland in northern scandinavia? samic hunters or something

Edit:
Could possibly be the finnish unique

I was under the impression that the finns fought with pretty much the same equipment as the scandinavians did, a sami hunter I'd say is best recruited in Lappland.

And on the whole welsh thing I'd just like to add that looking at a map showing Scandinavian placenames in the british isles, I see that Wales is pretty much free of them. The exception being the south of it. Suggesting that this would have been the place where the vikings made the deepest impression.

[Steppe Merc]

Those are beatiful! I hope I can play as the steppe forces, right?

[Incongruous]

Yep you can play as the Magyars, go look in the tech tree thread, where I posted the Magyar unit list on (I think) page four.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Okay a little preview for yall. Sorry for lack of previews, we're progressing in the work, and I'm too busy making units instead of neat previews. When they come, it will be a bunch.


Irish and albaic ridire fighting, (WIP!)




Irish Soikernbannal and a Albaic Tuaghnaghta




Russian and norwegian warriors



Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

Hehe nice ones, especially that last one, it really has the right athmosphere! I'd really like to see those beasts carve a path through a unit of spear-armed militia...