Campaign map

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree, in highly populated areas there will be smaller provinces = more cities also with my system, because there were so many important cities in highly populated areas. Highly populated area = many important cities is true in most cases, so in practise, both our systems would lead to the same map in the end, except perhaps some minor differences in lightly populated areas.

And the fact that so many bandits could move around means the control was often limited, even several centuries later bandits could move around and raid in France, among other places. The important stuff the way the R:TW engine is constructed, is whether the cities you include could have been subject to siege and assault. Smaller cities didn't need to be conquered in the same way, as they'd usually surrender when the larger cities fell, with only few exceptions.

[Meneldil]

I agree, in highly populated areas there will be smaller provinces = more cities also with my system, because there were so many important cities in highly populated areas. Highly populated area = many important cities is true in most cases, so in practise, both our systems would lead to the same map in the end, except perhaps some minor differences in lightly populated areas.

Yeah well, given that, Italy, Germany and France should have a LOT more of provinces, since they were much more populated than the whole british islands and scandinavian kingdoms. But then, OTOH, giving the welsh only one province would just makes playing him quite boring. The same would goes with almost all factions.

Anyway, I've almost completed the campaign map. The eastern part (eastern russia, asia minor) is quite screwed up, but that the map drawer's fault. Now, I'm kinda lost with the irish principalties, cause I can't find a map with the respective capitals, and with viking lands, aswell as finland.
Any help would be nice :)

[skeletor]

I'm not so sure giving a faction few citys is that bad, playing as Armenia was one of the most exiting campaigns i playd - Alot of action. France and German could have larger city's, but ofcource, atleast as many as the island.

But spealing of population, don't forget the areas around greece and the middle east. We can't end up with the Abbasid Caliphate with only a few prowinces.

-Skel-

[Meneldil]

Greece will be enough populated. As for the Middle East, the whole area from Aleppo to Jerusalem was part of the same province (Ascham), but since there was a lot of important cities here, I'm going to make more provinces for settlements like Jerusalem, Aleppo, Antioch and Damascus.

[The Stranger]

it would be cool if every provinces could have up to four cities.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yeah well, given that, Italy, Germany and France should have a LOT more of provinces, since they were much more populated than the whole british islands and scandinavian kingdoms. But then, OTOH, giving the welsh only one province would just makes playing him quite boring. The same would goes with almost all factions.

Anyway, I've almost completed the campaign map. The eastern part (eastern russia, asia minor) is quite screwed up, but that the map drawer's fault. Now, I'm kinda lost with the irish principalties, cause I can't find a map with the respective capitals, and with viking lands, aswell as finland.
Any help would be nice :)

For Ireland, I think the provinces on my province list will do. They've been worked through a lot. Check the province thread.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Greece will be enough populated. As for the Middle East, the whole area from Aleppo to Jerusalem was part of the same province (Ascham), but since there was a lot of important cities here, I'm going to make more provinces for settlements like Jerusalem, Aleppo, Antioch and possibly Damascus.

Yes, Jerusalem, Aleppo, Antioch and Damascus all have to be included so it's a good solution you've chosen.

[Meneldil]

Great news, I found a very detailled map from Volga Bulgharia and eastern Russia in 900. I thought this are would be kinda hard to fill with provinces, but now, everything looks fine. Moscow (called Moshka and owned by the Volga Bulghar rebels) will even be in :)

From my late readings, I think the Volga Bulghar should defenitly be in if we get a chance to add more factions with BI*, they owned a very large empire in north eastern russia.

I'm already using your province list for Ireland, but I can't find the settlements on any map. Same thing for Norway, Sweden and Finland.

*It will likely not happen.

Legio, could you answer to my PM ?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Which one? I've read and replied to all. Perhaps there was some not-sent message that I missed. If you tell me which PM it was I can send a new reply

[skeletor]

possibly Damascus.

Damascus is a must.

Damascus was one of the most important citys of the Muslim world. A few hundred years pre startdate, it was the capital of the Umayyad Caliphate (rouling all eastern land from spain to India.)

I know Damascus experienced a decline of population and welth from around 870 to 1000ad, but leaving out the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, wold be like leaving out Constantinople, or Rome.

-Skel-

[Meneldil]

*goes to edit his post and delete 'possibly'*

Happy ?

[skeletor]

Very :-)

[Rodion Romanovich]

I have very good news! Meneldil has helped me put together a version of the campaign map that can be run without a CTD on his computer. This means that the rest of the campaign map making will go smoothly, and I and Meneldil will probably be able to post some screenshots of a first beta version soon!

[ScionTheWorm]

okay didn't know where to post this, but anyway just tried out goddamn rtw 6, holy shit that is total

so it sat me in one of these moods, where I'm now thinking large about our mod. so, some thoughts.

Progress
Got one more skinner, that's great. Could have two factions complete in about four weeks myself, don't know about skel but he's on his way too. So when we have the campaignmap, you other guys (don't know exactly who is doing this) should start putting it together. Should, in case we would use BI, be a lot copy/paste work I guess (getting the factions ok, etc.) I've been a little lazy on the faction icons side, but should get to it soon, at least when we're going to start putting it all together.

And besides, legio has some daring gameplay visions I think, so that should be tried out too. When we got a starting point, we could easily test out various ideas regarding turns, traveldistances etc.

Could you...
- write some more faction descriptions?
- legio tell me exactly what's unique in gameplay with our mod?
- get this magyar unitlist ok. would hate skinning incorrect units, waste of work

Release date
September.....

Team members
Who are they?

ok that's all

[Rodion Romanovich]

Progress
Got one more skinner, that's great. Could have two factions complete in about four weeks myself, don't know about skel but he's on his way too. So when we have the campaignmap, you other guys (don't know exactly who is doing this) should start putting it together. Should, in case we would use BI, be a lot copy/paste work I guess (getting the factions ok, etc.) I've been a little lazy on the faction icons side, but should get to it soon, at least when we're going to start putting it all together.

And besides, legio has some daring gameplay visions I think, so that should be tried out too. When we got a starting point, we could easily test out various ideas regarding turns, traveldistances etc.

My R:TW is still not behaving as it should . It seems like I personally can't run the home made campaign map. I have no idea why there's so much fuss with it. I've been able to run the mundus magnus map, I installed it for testing, but no other map seems to work. I'll discuss the map again with Meneldil when he reads the PMs I sent to him. Really a pity that it doesn't work as it should. I'm sad to say so, but the campaign map will take even longer, unless Menedil forgot to send me some necessary files or wrong versions of the files or something, and I can get it all working when I get the right files, or something like that. Next time I'll wait a little longer before cheering about the campaign map

Could you...
- write some more faction descriptions?
- legio tell me exactly what's unique in gameplay with our mod?
- get this magyar unitlist ok. would hate skinning incorrect units, waste of work

Re faction descriptions: ok, I can do that. I hope Meneldil doesn't mind if I do that instead of the map_heights.tga. If he does, I'll do map_heights before I can do much more about faction descriptions. But don't worry, they'll come...

Re gameplay:
- the recruitment system: militia have 0 turns training, low recruitment cost but high upkeep, meaning they're supposed to be called in for shorter periods, then dismissed. Higher quality troops are very expensive both in training and upkeep, meaning there'll be a small core army (tagmata/royal army/hird etc.) that needs support from temporarily recruited militia in order to perform well in battle. The cost changes will mean armies consist mostly of militia but the core army will still be important. It also means it's hard to destroy an opponent because he can quickly strengthen his armies when needed with the fast militia recruitment.
- rebels: rebels will be stronger and therefore not as annoying as vanilla R:TW rebels. The slower battle speed will also make them harder to deal with.
- slower battle speed: battles last longer and more clever tactics are needed than the vanilla R:TW hit-and-run and take-by-surprise tactics. Here, clever traps will win the battles. This will also make the battles harder vs AI, because you can't as easily isolate and rout units. Morale of most troops will be higher, and defense stats will be higher. Cavalry is down-powered compared to the infantry compared to R:TW in order to make it more realistic. The simplest archers are also powered down a little, whereas javelins are stronger. Javelinmen and others will however often have less ammo than in vanilla R:TW.
- no more mini-navies: higher morale will lead to fewer surviving mini-navies that need to be hunted down after battles.
- economy: the economy will be hard to keep running if you constantly have the militia recruited. In order to get enough money for war you need to stick with core army only in peace-time, and recruit militia only when necessary. A nation crippled by too much war will have problems surviving economically. Once a nation has grown large enough it will of course be able to maintain a larger army, but the stronger rebels will make it hard to govern a too large empire.
- strong rebels at start: all the factions that can't be playable will be represented by very strong rebels from start in the areas in question. Mostly falling empires are represented as rebels instead of factions. The strong rebels means rebel cities aren't easy grabs like in R:TW, meaning it's sometimes even better to attack a playable faction instead. For example Mercia, Northumbria, Britanny, Great Moravia, Poland and a few other factions are represented by very strong rebels.
- zone of recruit: some units can only be recruited in certain areas.
- incompatible troops buildings: if possible, the implementation of this will make it necessary to tear down enemy troops buildings and build new own ones before troops can be recruited in newly conquered territory. This simulates how a new province needs to be held for a while before any loyal troops can be recruited in it.
- mercenaries: some factions will benefit a lot more, than any faction in vanilla R:TW does, from recruiting specialist mercenaries.
- smaller percentual stats differences between units: means militia isn't overrun like peasants in vanilla R:TW. It will make the battles more realistic, and the player won't be unbeatable as soon as he has reached the highest technology level.

Release date
September.....

Hehe, we'll see, we'll see... I think it'll probably take longer than that, but it's not entirely impossible...

Team members
Who are they?

Copy+paste from the Introduction thread:
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner
- Emperor Umeu 1 - coding/unit balancing/soon city editor
- dark_shadow89 - coding/skinner/unit editor (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Pocket_Tanks - txt editor/skinner (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Meneldil - map editing/text editing/buildings editing/units editing
- QuickDagger - skinner

These haven't shown up in a long time, and might therefore have quit the mod without telling me or someone else:
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- dark_shadow89 - coding/skinner/unit editor (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Pocket_Tanks - txt editor/skinner (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)

The others have shown up regularly though.

[ScionTheWorm]

tried to make an intro music piece for the mod. it's meant to give a somewhat dark age feeling, and isn't very finished either (should be synchronized with some intro story thing). but if you wan't, tell me what you think. Aint quite happy with the ending hehe

Never tried rapidshare before, but here it is. May be F.. up
http://rapidshare.de/files/3915515/aof_intro.mp3.html

I was thinking that this could appear:

1. Age Of Vikings and fanatics Title

2. Some short story/info (i see a quote; "Cattle die, friends die, even you die : but I know one that never die, the judgement over dead men")

3. Zooming out of a bird checking out a corpse from a battlefield... Lying others there. Camera going up.... what's there..? A friggin massive army charged by another from the other side of these corpses

4. Zooming out... clash! Closeups of blood fire and death.

5... unsure

6. Closing: not text but a dark closing, no cheering I think...

I think I could make it. Yes I liked the mtw... hope I didn't get too carried away

edit:
I know it's not quite there, but would make it more complete if you like it

[Rodion Romanovich]

Really cool! Did you cut together different pieces or did you do it from scratch, composing and everything? That could be the intro movie and menu movie music. If you know any good program for cutting large mp3:s or anything for composing (I had one such program for a Mac once, but haven't found any for PC yet, despite much searching) and synthesizing the audio and converting it to mp3, I could upload some of my own ideas too.

And yeah, the intro movie idea sounds cool too.

I must admit I've also done some planning of my own. I had in mind an army walking through terrain, with slow and calm, but still dark, music. Then an enemy army is spotted on a hill, through the trees of a small forest the army marches through. The music gets more violent, and the army starts to march quicker and quicker towards the army, to attack.

While the army is marching, the music gets more dramatic, and we see a shot of the lower parts of the legs of some unknown horses gallopping through a forest. Then the view switches between the marching army and the horses, with shorter and shorter shots of each of them. The two armies I mentioned first then meet and clash together, still switching back and forth between the horses and the two armies, with shorter and shorter shots. Every time the view is switched to the horses, the camera moves upwards, showing more and more of the horses, until finally, we switch back to the main battle, and how the horses ride straight into the battle, and rout the army we first saw. Then there'd be zoomings of meleé ending in the army routing and the ground being littered with corpses and a few remaining troops running away. The fighting should be cut shorter than a real battle, just for a few seconds, then the music would dramatically mark the end of the battle by showing several still pictures of the dead on the ground, then go black.

Perhaps Vikings vs French would be a good faction choice for the fight, or perhaps it should be Saxons vs Danes, with the French and Danes, respectively, being the winners. Any thoughts?

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks! actually I composed everything from scratch, I have an interrest for making music (mostly metal). don't know what you mean by cutting mp3, here I did it note by note. guess Cool edit would do the trick though. I think we should do that, composing, for the modmusic, doesn't have to be a lot of work.. just to give it it's own feeling.

made another one, when defeat in battle. Maybe a little over the top for our mod. should be lower volume I think

http://rapidshare.de/files/3918623/defeat.mp3.html

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, which program do you compose in? I'd love to give it a try on my own (I've composed by hand with the help of a piano to find the notes, but it's a lot harder and can't exactly give you an appropriate .mp3 file...)

[ScionTheWorm]

cakewalk sonar 3 + some orchestra... what is it.. just says orcehstral. I guess you can use a lot of better things that I've got, but I hightly recommend sonar 3.

I've tried out a package before called "voices of the acopolypse"... choir that you can program to say what you wan't, whith english or latin language

edit:
edirol is it name.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow, that one was impressive too! However I think a defeat melody should have darker tones. It's melancholic enough, but too bright tones IMO.

If I find a good audio creator I'll try to arrange some melodies I know that would make really good defeat music. Sarabande by Handel, or Funeral March by Frederic Chopin etc. etc. I have plenty of ideas, hopefully I'll be able to make something out of them...

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've tried out a package before called "voices of the acopolypse"... choir that you can program to say what you wan't, whith english or latin language

Hehe, nice

[ScionTheWorm]

oh sorry I actually didn't see that you said you were going to make for the defeat. I'll post it anyway, could be used somewhere else. I don't think it's enough room for music in rtw for us!! but we should really agree on some criterias and "style", so it's cosistent in the mod. everybody could make their peice, if the others like it and it's good.

Ok I'll rather try making some "into battlemode" music, I can't get this defeat thing right...

[ScionTheWorm]

wow you're on an editing spree...

Really cool! Did you cut together different pieces or did you do it from scratch, composing and everything? That could be the intro movie and menu movie music. If you know any good program for cutting large mp3:s or anything for composing (I had one such program for a Mac once, but haven't found any for PC yet, despite much searching) and synthesizing the audio and converting it to mp3, I could upload some of my own ideas too.

And yeah, the intro movie idea sounds cool too.

I must admit I've also done some planning of my own. I had in mind an army walking through terrain, with slow and calm, but still dark, music. Then an enemy army is spotted on a hill, through the trees of a small forest the army marches through. The music gets more violent, and the army starts to march quicker and quicker towards the army, to attack.

While the army is marching, the music gets more dramatic, and we see a shot of the lower parts of the legs of some unknown horses gallopping through a forest. Then the view switches between the marching army and the horses, with shorter and shorter shots of each of them. The two armies I mentioned first then meet and clash together, still switching back and forth between the horses and the two armies, with shorter and shorter shots. Every time the view is switched to the horses, the camera moves upwards, showing more and more of the horses, until finally, we switch back to the main battle, and how the horses ride straight into the battle, and rout the army we first saw. Then there'd be zoomings of meleé ending in the army routing and the ground being littered with corpses and a few remaining troops running away. The fighting should be cut shorter than a real battle, just for a few seconds, then the music would dramatically mark the end of the battle by showing several still pictures of the dead on the ground, then go black.

Perhaps Vikings vs French would be a good faction choice for the fight, or perhaps it should be Saxons vs Danes, with the French and Danes, respectively, being the winners. Any thoughts?

Viking vs french sounds excellent. norse vs christianity... would like to see a cross friggin bloody at the end there, some grim scene. it should be, quote neongod, fucking metal. In-game video could work, though I would like to filter the video some, and add some own scenes of closeups (grass, corpses etc).

So can I have the intro music and the "going to battle" music?

[Rodion Romanovich]

wow you're on an editing spree...


Viking vs french sounds excellent. norse vs christianity... would like to see a cross friggin bloody at the end there, some grim scene. it should be, quote neongod, fucking metal. In-game video could work, though I would like to filter the video some, and add some own scenes of closeups (grass, corpses etc).

So can I have the intro music and the "going to battle" music?

Hm, just so that we speak of the same music, here's what I call them:
- Intro music - for the menu animation. ONLY ONE.
- Deploy music - during deployment and before you've marched any troops. SEVERAL PIECES.
- Marching music - after you've moved your first unit up till the actual fighting starts (artillery doesn't count). SEVERAL PIECES.
- Battle music - after first fighting starts (artillery doesn't count). SEVERAL PIECES.
- Victory music - after victorious battlev. ONLY ONE.
- Defeat music - after unresolved or lost battle. ONLY ONE.

Have I forgotten any?

Anyway, if we stick to these names when we discuss we'll know what we mean. I don't know what you mean by intro and going to battle, please specify. Personally I'd really much like to make the marching music, but for marching music, deploy music and battle music there's AFAIK room for several alternative music files so we could theoretically both do all of them.

[GoreBag]

Have I forgotten any?

I'd say a few pieces for the campaign map (I really liked that Eastern flute one RTW had). If these could change based on the culture, that'd be ever better.

I listened to both mp3s...and the first one just makes me think Scion listens to a lot of Nile. It's really quite good, though; I think it would work pretty well with the mod.

I think the "defeat" tune might be better suited to play after a faction had just been eliminated.

quote neongod, fucking metal

Damn straight.

[ScionTheWorm]

this would be battle music when charging, and I'm quite happy with it (for now). if longer it could be variations of the parts included...

http://rapidshare.de/files/3921524/battle01.mp3.html

yeah nile....

[GoreBag]

It sounds more like tension music to me..the timpanis are more ominous than dynamic, and the strings are very erratic. I enjoyed the piece, though; you're pretty good at this electronic stuff.

[ScionTheWorm]

It sounds more like tension music to me..the timpanis are more ominous than dynamic, and the strings are very erratic. I enjoyed the piece, though; you're pretty good at this electronic stuff.

oh that's a lot of strange words... (erratic?)
I see what you mean, and it kicked more in the music program than on mp3, though after my taste that's battlemusic. I wouldn't want to overdramatize everything with passionate and overdramatic music - even though it would be really cool in some large important battles, I don't want this drumpiece starting each time I move someone.... but if we could make and use a lot of different musicpieces, it would work. I don't know if there's a limit on this, is it?

About the campaign music, I think it should be very... laidback... I want to do a guitar piece for that, no culturespecific.. could turn out as crap though

[GoreBag]

Yeah, erratic...I mean that they're all over the place.

Well, I wouldn't want to over-dramatize either, but something more up-tempo would be more appropriate for a bunch of manly men decapitating one another. Seriously, though, listening to this piece and thinking of battle makes me imagine men taking up positions and nocking arrows, rather than the mêlée of battle.

I'm thinking something as robust and manly, but with less strings and more...boom. Warhorns and stuff like that.

Argh, I'm having a tough time describing my thoughts on it.