Campaign map

[skeletor]

LOL

Imo (and i have been drinking :p) the vikings should start with some really misplaced armys to be the pain in the ass they were. Not huge conqering armys, but small bands of them in England, Portugal, Italy and france. This ofcource needs alot of playtesting, but it wold probably be alot of fun.

They wold never in any case be able to hold on any provinces in the south, but as a player you wold be able to loot southeuropean citys (realistic) and if you play one of the other factions you should start with armys facing the obvious borders, and be forced to deal with them in yous unprotected "backdoor (realistic).

The byzantine/muslim/khazar armys were huge organized dreadnoughts, batteling out huge battles compared to the northern kingdoms. And they should, by setting economy/sterting armys/diplomacy/technology/personality be forced to focus on huge battles among eachother, and then being vulnerable for smaller attacks away from their fronts. (if possibele)

This is just my oppinion, but for all offencive factoins of the time, having armys spread way past their borders wold make the campaigns very interesting.

Ofcource, small raidingpartys shouldnt stand a chance against any of the factions main armys. But having vikings all over Europe (specially in britain) and muslims penetrating in Byzantine areas, Franks penetrating Al-Andalus areas, aso. wold be very realistic.

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

The problem with that is that these raiding parties weren't under the same kind of central leadership that will be present once the player takes over. If these small viking armies were to be Rebels, though, I think that it would make a nice touch.

[Meneldil]

LOL

Imo (and i have been drinking :p) the vikings should start with some really misplaced armys to be the pain in the ass they were. Not huge conqering armys, but small bands of them in England, Portugal, Italy and france. This ofcource needs alot of playtesting, but it wold probably be alot of fun.

(...)

Ofcource, small raidingpartys shouldnt stand a chance against any of the factions main armys. But having vikings all over Europe (specially in britain) and muslims penetrating in Byzantine areas, Franks penetrating Al-Andalus areas, aso. wold be very realistic.

-Skel-

Well, as far as I know, a raiding army far away from its faction's lands will just try to go retreat to its cities, and won't raid anything. If you want these raiding armies to attack britain/france/whatever, you'll have to give them a settlement in these regions (which isn't un-historical), or to use command scripts such as "attack 'xxxxx' settlement".

Edit : Or as Neon God said, make these armies rebels, and everything will be fine I think :)

[Meneldil]

1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/Maine/Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Flanders - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Castilla - Burgos
15 - Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)
17 - Toulouse - Toulouse
18 - Badajoz - Badajoz
19 - Toledo - Toledo
20 - Zaragoza - Zaragoza
21 - Valencia - Valencia (I don't know if this place was an independant Emirate or part of Cordoba during the 9th century)
22 - Almeria - Almeria
23 - Granada - Granada
24 - Cordova - Cordova
25 - Sevilla - Sevilla
26 - Novgorod - Novgorod
27 - Polotsk - Polotsk
28 - Smolensk - Smolensk
29 - Rostov-Suzdal - Rostov (could be replaced be either Vladimir or Suzdal)
30 - Kiev - Kiev
31 - Pereiaslav - Pereiaslav
32 - Chernihiv - Ryazan
33 - Volhynia - Brest
34 - Galich - Galich
35 - Estonia ? - ???
36 - Livonia ? - ???
37 - Lithuania - ???
38 - Prussia - ???
39 - Pomerania - Kolberg
40 - Mazovia - Plock
41 - Chrobatia - Cracow
42 - Polania - Posen
43 - Friesland - Utrecht
44 - Ripuaria (could be Upper Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Aix la Chapelle
45 - Moselle (could be Lower Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Strasburg
46 - Liguria - Genoa
47 - Tuscany - Florence (Pisa ?)
48 - States of the Church - Roma
49 - Spoleto - Spoleto
50 - Venetia - Venice
51 - Friuli - Aquileia
52 - Croatia - Sissek
53 - Servia - ???
54 - Lombardy - Milan
55 - Alemannia - Zurich
56 - Franconia - Frankfort
57 - Saxonnia - Bremen
58 - Transalbingia - Hamburg
59 - March of the Billungs - Oldenburg
60 - NordMark - Brandenburg
61 - OstMark - Juterbog
62 - Bohemia - Prague
63 - Bavaria - Salzburg
64 - Moravia - Olmutz
65 - Silesia - Breslau
66 - Carinthia - Fiesach
67 - Cherson - Cherson
68 - Tmoutarakan - Tmoutarakan
69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
71 - Pannonia - Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia - Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat - Vidin
76 - Dalmatia - Ragusa
77 - Dyrrachium - Dyrrachium
78 - Nicopolis - Nicopolis
79 - Peloponnesus - Corinthes
80 - Hellas - Athens
81 - Thessalonica - Salonica
82 - Macedonia - Andrianople
83 - Thrace - Constantinople

[GoreBag]

Coming along nicely, but my comments from before still stand.

[Meneldil]

Yeah, but I found a way to make Aquitaine and German province less huge. I just want to make sure I won't reach the 199 provinces limit.

[ScionTheWorm]

who is doing the map? meneldil? or just researching?

[Meneldil]

I'm just researching, mainly because I have nothing to do and like everything related to the normans/vikings age.
I'm not even part of the team

[Archbaker]

1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/Maine/Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Flanders - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Castilla - Burgos
15 - Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)
17 - Toulouse - Toulouse
18 - Badajoz - Badajoz
19 - Toledo - Toledo
20 - Zaragoza - Zaragoza
21 - Valencia - Valencia (I don't know if this place was an independant Emirate or part of Cordoba during the 9th century)
22 - Almeria - Almeria
23 - Granada - Granada
24 - Cordova - Cordova
25 - Sevilla - Sevilla
26 - Novgorod - Novgorod
27 - Polotsk - Polotsk
28 - Smolensk - Smolensk
29 - Rostov-Suzdal - Rostov (could be replaced be either Vladimir or Suzdal)
30 - Kiev - Kiev
31 - Pereiaslav - Pereiaslav
32 - Chernihiv - Ryazan
33 - Volhynia - Brest
34 - Galich - Galich
35 - Estonia ? - ???
36 - Livonia ? - ???
37 - Lithuania - ???
38 - Prussia - ???
39 - Pomerania - Kolberg
40 - Mazovia - Plock
41 - Chrobatia - Cracow
42 - Polania - Posen
43 - Friesland - Utrecht
44 - Ripuaria (could be Upper Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Aix la Chapelle
45 - Moselle (could be Lower Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Strasburg
46 - Liguria - Genoa
47 - Tuscany - Florence (Pisa ?)
48 - States of the Church - Roma
49 - Spoleto - Spoleto
50 - Venetia - Venice
51 - Friuli - Aquileia
52 - Croatia - Sissek
53 - Servia - ???
54 - Lombardy - Milan
55 - Alemannia - Zurich
56 - Franconia - Frankfort
57 - Saxonnia - Bremen
58 - Transalbingia - Hamburg
59 - March of the Billungs - Oldenburg
60 - NordMark - Brandenburg
61 - OstMark - Juterbog
62 - Bohemia - Prague
63 - Bavaria - Salzburg
64 - Moravia - Olmutz
65 - Silesia - Breslau
66 - Carinthia - Fiesach
67 - Cherson - Cherson
68 - Tmoutarakan - Tmoutarakan
69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
71 - Pannonia - Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia - Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat - Vidin
76 - Dalmatia - Ragusa
77 - Dyrrachium - Dyrrachium
78 - Nicopolis - Nicopolis
79 - Peloponnesus - Corinthes
80 - Hellas - Athens
81 - Thessalonica - Salonica
82 - Macedonia - Andrianople
83 - Thrace - Constantinople

#15 should be Asturies (that spelling), both because the faction is called Kingdom of Asturia in the game, and because it was based in Asturies untill 914. Not to mention that León is sitting on the Castilian meseta and has no coastline. A decent compromise would be to call the area Asturies-León.
The capital could still be León, but Oviedo seems more likely because it would be closer to the port (which should be placed north of Oviedo like the town of Xixón (Gijón). The original capital Cangas de Onis is also an option, but it was much smaller than Oviedo.
The area could contain a minor wonder called Marian Shrine of Covadonga.

#16 I would put Santiago de Compostela as capital because it was a frequent target of pilgrimages (possibly more so than Jerusalem) and a generally large city. It is also still situated in modern Galicia whereas Porto is in Portugal (duh). A Coruña (Las Coruña) was also a large city. The Cathedral of St. James could very well be a wonder of the same kind as the pyramids (loyalty of Catholics).

[Csatadi]

69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
???=> Camp of the Black Magyars

70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
???=> Camp of the White Magyars

These were the traditional names of the people living on the eastern part – Black Magyars, and the western part – White Magyars.

I suggest smaller Magyar provinces – especially Levédia because the Magyars should have at least one neighbouring Pecheneg province – otherwise they probably will not fight against the Magyars.

71 - Pannonia – Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia – Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat – Vidin

The northern and eastern borders of Carpathia and Transylvania didn’t give the curve of the Carpathian mountains.
I suggest a thicker Carpathia like the shape of Slovakia now.

I have a map about the Carpathian basin in the 9th century.
I don’t see there Ofen, Kaliesa, Erlau and Vidin.
71 Instead Ofen I suggest Blatenszki grad (=Mosaburg). In 847 Pribina founded here a (slav) duchy which stands to 876.
72 Avarorum Solitudo: I think it shouldn’t be called in Latin. The simply Avar Lands or Avar Steppe would be better. Instead of Kaliesa I suggest an Avar Camp. It is near the Danuvius in the same altitude like the lake Balaton (Pelissa).
73 This territory had slav inhabitants, the Ants. I suggest simply Camp of the Ants instead of Erlau. (You may have right but there isn’t any city on this part of the map.) If the western part will not be Moravian Nitrava (called now Nitra) can be its city.
74 I see 2 appropriate cities on the map. Zilingrad and Mojgrad are in the vicinity of where Dej and Cluj-Napoca lie now.
Mojgrad sounds well, what do you think?
75 I think the ’Bánát’ name was used only later, in the era of the Magyar Kingdom.
I don’t see well if Belgrad – it has the same name now – is in the province. I suggest this city if it is in Bánát. My map shows here slavs – the Brodniks. But there isn’t any city except of Belgrad.


Albanians (on the Balkan) are missing from the map. Historians say they are descendats of the Illiryans.

[Meneldil]

Could you put a map with these cities' emplacement ?

[Csatadi]

My atlas book is too large and I haven't got a scanner at home.

this one is similar to my map:
The Carpathian Basin before the Hungarian Conquest in the 9th century
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/...061gf95035.jpg

Other maps
wander of the Magyars
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/eg...der/wander.gif

Magyars, Byzantium etc.
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index6.html

The Carpathian Basin before the Hungarian Conquest in the 9th century
very simple map:
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/eg...t9/carpat9.gif

Other maps
Serbia
http://www.answers.com/main/content/...rb_lands03.jpg

Turkic history - many turkic people. Be aware Pechenegs are called here to Besenyos.
http://www.turkicworld.org/

slavs:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.co.../0102slavs.jpg