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Thread: Anti-cheat patch

  1. #1

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    I was thinking of making a patch for the game to detect koku cheats. Being cheated a couple times lately(I've got the log files to prove it) I'm furious. I'm gonna start designing the app this week and hopefully coding it soon.

    What I might implament is a reverse cheat, where if someone cheats, it cheats for the victim, so the game is even. This way if they try to cheat it's still fair

    If anyone is good at win proging then help is appreciated. I know c++ but am fairly new to win proging.
    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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  2. #2

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    all the power/voltage to you man

    i'm a bit into game programming, but dont think i'm good enough to help you on this one.

    good luck

  3. #3
    Member Member lei's Avatar
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    way to go voltage, i was hoping for some anti-cheat functions in the 1.13 release, but it's probably wishing too much. i can't win prog at all, maybe worth checking some c++ web sites or ascii places for ready made scripts to work on, you never know, they may have the actual game hacks there already, all you gotta do is prog something to search and register those specific codes

    very good luck m8, you could have a whole load of demand for this prog in the near future

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  4. #4

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    Yeah but first I gotta hack into STW. If I get started on coding the anti-cheat prog then I'll be sure to post it.

    I've already thought of some problems though. The koku cheat is used in the battle setup section. So I would have to make some way of detecting it there. If I can only detect it while in game, then I can find another way to stop the cheaters(maybe raising +9 morale of all my units ). Or what I can do is do something like a cheat check. This would be something like clicking a button, and the prog scans the people in the game, giving you how much koku they have allocated to them.
    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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  5. #5
    Member Member Anssi Hakkinen's Avatar
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    Technically, discussing the methods of MP cheating is as forbidden here as posting links to actual cheats... But for such a good cause, we can of course make an exception. However, you should refrain from posting all the sordid details in public, who knows what ideas people will get...

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  6. #6
    Member Member lei's Avatar
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    hmmm anssi's got a point i guess, but i think in game's gonna be about the only accesible part. yeah, if they get the koku details transferred to the log files, then surely there's a way to scan the used koku in game.

    anyways, leave the programming to those who know how (good luck again voltage), and we'll see what becomes of this idea.

    oh p.s.: maybe worth waiting till the 1.13 and mongols release, probably got completely different programming or set-ups etc.
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  7. #7

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    Hehe, I didn't even think about the Mongol Invasion. I will work on it now though, and will dive into it when the expansion comes out. But we'll have to wait and see if the cheating continues after 1.13 patch.
    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
    - The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
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    i wasnt gonna poo-poo what at first sounds like a worthwhile project, but then it struck me that if you crack the original code to prevent cheating, you've just opened pandora's box. your code then becomes a more readily accessible wway for hackers to gain access to the 'core' parameters....through your code. it also tends to open one of those endless, ridiculous battles of 'i'll hack to prevent hacking, so the hacker hacks to prevent your anti-hacking' ad infinitum.

    i think old what's his name had it right...know yourself and know your enemy. which in this game translates to 'know who yer playing'.

    K.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member The Daimyo's Avatar
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    Actually, if you crack it, and you make the anticheat program, then you can lock up your program with one of the many available programs that allows you to make your app less open, but I dare not say uncrackable.
    I advise keeping your source secret, and get someone (or yourself) with Visual Studio Enterprise, or something similar - to make the actual application code and then sourcesafe it, or something better.
    Go here for more info on this, since it will need to be a C++ app most likely: http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/te...l/articles.asp
    Good luck man, and if you need any help, just ask!


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  10. #10

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    Probably the place to start would be reverse-engineering the network protocol -- both low-level (UDP or TCP? What sort of messages are sent out, and what do they mean, and how are they handled) and high-level (server-client? client-client? Does the server act as 'referee', tracking all data, or does each client handle its own data? Is any sanity/synchronicity checking done?).

    So you'd probably need to use a fw/proxy which lets the packets pass through, but records their contents. And then start reading and tweaking...

    The koku thing strikes me as odd. Either neither machine informs the other of what troops have been selected (which prevents verification on that phase, but also prevents information cheats), or they do but no price-checking is done (in which case somebody at CA was being _careless_... this would also allow an information cheat), or they *do* perform price-checking, but then during battle units are altered (honor, type, et al) and the change is propagated to the other machine (again, that *shouldn't* happen with a sane design).

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  11. #11
    Member Member Satake's Avatar
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    Just a thought here...

    Now say if i was using a koku cheat , someone else has the program installed.. He gets the higher koku , I get the log file showing he has higher koku... I can blow the trick in his face by calling him a cheat... After all I could just say none of us had that patch. Maybe note it in logfile or something

  12. #12
    Member Member Satake's Avatar
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    Oh heck what good would it do anyway with the no-naming policy

  13. #13
    Summa Rudis Senior Member Catiline's Avatar
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    QED

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    Member Member theforce's Avatar
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    Hoho.
    Well since l was too bored to read all other posts... go for it!!!
    And also plz go to http://darksideclan.fateback.com
    where you can send me the nane(s) of the ppl you cheated you along with the log files man. It for the entire community so please post em there

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  15. #15
    Member Member Shuko's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by theforce:
    [B]Hoho.
    send me the nane(s) of the ppl you cheated you along with the log files man. It for the entire community so please post em there


    Why don't we all go one step further and post the Top 100 Cheaters (hopefully less than that are cheating), honest players could then avoid them until they repent. Anyone who has been confirmed as a cheat gets officially listed as one and perhaps banned from online play for one week.

    I have encountered about three cheats in three months, other players in the game have immediately typed in '..... is cheating' and the cheat exits in a big hurry.

    On a seperate issue, we need to ban one or two players who are regularily online who constantly swear(extreme, not just the occasional f... word) and insult everyone. They are not amusing and are impervious to most of the other players telling them to
    shut up or leave. When the lose (to players silly enough to play them)they have no manners and become even more obnoxious.

    Peer pressure and enforcable rules are a strong deterrent to cheats and imbeciles.
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  16. #16
    Member Member Satake's Avatar
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    I don't think i have ever been cheated other than ppl bailing on me. Perhaps I have been redzoned a couple of times , I don't recall as i was not aware of it till recently. I don't think this s h i t list is doing any good. It might damage some inocent people and the ones who do cheat could care less and will just make another name. The only ones that will care are the ones who didn't cheat.

  17. #17
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Konnichiwa,

    One should balance expected profit and losses.

    A cheaterslist.

    Profit -none. If a real cheater is proved to be a cheater and he feels hindered by being listed, he'll create another nick: a list won't stop cheating.


    Losses -A cheaterslist might mark a honorable player as a cheater and hurt his feelings.

    -A cheaterslist will cause flamewars.

    -The author of the cheatlist might hurt his own reputation if someone listed on the cheatlist turns out not to be
    a cheater.

    If you feel you should make a list, publish a weekly top 10 list on your website containing the nicks of players who you played the nicest games with.

    You can ignore swearers in the room by typing #ignore.
    You can password protect a game you host so only friends can join.

    Shuko san, a person can do different things when he's falsely accused of cheating:
    -he can remain silence.
    -he can explain he's not.
    -he can flame you.
    -he can just leave the game.

    An Org patron.

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  18. #18

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    Yes I was cheated by someone who had all honor 9 warrior monks and heavy cav. It was a 10k koku game too! Well I told everyone in the chatroom, and after chatting it turns out he cheated other people but under a different name(so some people said). As soon as I started talking about him, he left the room, and probably came back as someone else.

    Also about naming cheaters on a list, another reason it might have bad effects is if someone happens to have a name very similar to a cheater. Like if one letter is changed, someone might remember most the name and assume this guy is the cheater he had seen on the list, or maybe he'll think the cheater changed his name slightly or something.

    There are only three ways to truly prevent cheaters:
    1. Prevent him from cheating with a perfectly hack-proof game or 24/7 monitored games by staff who award a win to the cheated and ban the cheater.

    2. Make a patch of some sort that detects a cheater and cheats him, or balances the koku by adding the difference to your units. Though I'm sure it couldn't detect all cheats, it would be better than nothing.

    3. Don't play online

    Also when nothing is done about cheaters, or some people come to think that nothing is being done, more and more people give in and become a cheater themselves, spilling their anger of being cheated on innocent people.
    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
    - The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.

  19. #19
    Member Member Shuko's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by High Voltage:

    Also when nothing is done about cheaters, or some people come to think that nothing is being done, more and more people give in and become a cheater themselves, spilling their anger of being cheated on innocent people.

    You have missed the point a little I think. While I now concede that having a cheat list is improbable we need to get you help or assistance from some IT players so the cheat patch can be developed quickly.

    To suggest that 'we' stop playing this superb online game because of a few cheaters is absurd, your smiling icon next to that comment refutes that text. I find one or two of the regular "personalities" far more objectionable, even if you do #ignore they still cause problems and other players leave because of that. This problem does need addressing by someone in authority.

    All the time and effort that many, many people put into making online Shogun Total War run smoothly is appreciated by all the online gamers, so a thank you from me and especially for the technical help.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
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    well, i was hoping it wouldnt happen in stw, but i guess i shld have known better from past experience. you cant give players unlimited nicks. it just opens the door to abuse.

    i used to play another game back in the 80's where you could simply change your existing nick any time you wanted to. a player would come in, pk (player kill) other players, and then leave out to the lobby and menus and change his nick, then come back in and ambush you with another name. you would be expecting 'john doe' and kind of watching out for him and along comes 'mac truck' so you dont bother guarding against him and lo and behold yer suddenly dead because it's really just 'john doe' again.

    it would seem that all these multiple nicks are also causing some problems in the data base now as well. so, perhaps it's time we put a limit on the number of nicks allowed. i'd suggest a limit of 3 per account; one to get to know the game, 1 as a clan name when yer ready to join one, and 1 for whatever (sometimes being anonymous is desireable).
    i'm quite sure i've got the same person on my ignore list more than once. and didnt sun tzu (boy, i never remember how to spell that name) say that you shld know your enemy? kinda tough when he keeps changing his identity ;) although, some folks just cant change their personality...you always know when certain folks are there no matter what name they use....lol.

    K.

  21. #21
    Member Member Shuko's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraellin:
    [B]well, i was hoping it wouldnt happen in stw, but i guess i shld have known better from past experience. you cant give players unlimited nicks. it just opens the door to abuse.

    Whilst limiting the number of nicks obviously has to be done there is also another problem which I think is outside this "anti-cheat patch".

    This is where a player ALWAYS hosts a 1v1 competition game and if he is losing 'pulls the game' so he doesn't lose honour points. He dumps his opponent out of his game. This player also sets a short time limit but doesn't tell you, until you commence the game you can't tell anyway, this needs correcting in the next patch.

    Players like this are well known by regulars but they prey on newbies. They don't even swap names and accuse the accuser (often accusers as others confirm their misdeeds) of cheating and thus try to bluff those present into being unsure who the real cheater is. It is not something that you are likely to forget in a hurry. To me this is the most insidious form of cheating, players such as this have no honour and deserve to be banned from any form of online play. How you could eliminate them again poses a big problem, we don't want to hurt any of the honest players.

    I don't have the answers and can only hope we can somehow solve these problems. Human nature is fairly consistent so 'once a cheat = always a cheat' by my reckoning as very few reform. Perhaps a number of trusted and experienced players could act as watchdogs and report such cheats eg. with two such reports by different persons the so called cheating player is given a chance to explain his or her version of events before action is taken. This is not the sort of thing we want to do but if left unchecked the cheats and abusers will multiply and stuff up as much as they can get away with. Where to draw the line ?
    website for CO-OP SP Campaign is : http://www.totalwar.org/maltz/SP_Campaign/.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Kraellin's Avatar
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    i believe some of this is being addressed in the new patch and expansion pack. several things have always been missing from the list of games that are displayed in the foyer; one is the season in which the game takes place and the other is if there is a time limit and how long the timer is set for. i'm fairly sure i saw a note about this being addressed in the upcoming changes. at least about the season, not sure about the timer, but it could be handled in the same way.

    K.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Krasturak's Avatar
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    Well, Krast hopes they think to REMOVE the cheat codes with the next patch.

    Arent these development tools unecessary in the finished version?

    Krast has always been confused by these cheat codes being left in games being prepared for market ...

    Can't they just remove the code?

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

  24. #24
    Member Member evilc's Avatar
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    well done that man, remove ALL multiplayer cheats etc. when publishing games plz.

    i suppose single player cheats are fine though

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  25. #25

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    Originally posted by Krasturak
    Quote Krast has always been confused by these cheat codes being left in games being prepared for market ...

    Can't they just remove the code?[/QUOTE]

    You have to understand that the developers did not code in multiplayer cheats. They added single player cheats which are accessed in single player only. It is nearly impossible to stop someone from making a trainer or hack to cheat in multiplayer games, because whenever they do fix a found hack, someone makes another.

    You must remember there are ways around any software, some just more difficult than others.

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    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
    - The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.
    - A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
    - The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member NinjaKilla's Avatar
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    I don't expect anyone to tell me how it's done - I don't think I want to know. I would however be interested in hearing how people realise its been done to them - what are the signs.

    I've heard about this koku cheat quite a lot now, but I don't think that I've ever had it done to me - but then I guess I wouldn't know anyway!

  27. #27
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    ninja
    add koku cheat: not that we wouldn't want to tell you , but we're trying to keep it as little known as possible, i think you can understand why.

    and the way you know it's happening? very easy, especially if it's a moron doing it. it goes like this- you get into a game, you have 5 000 koku to use, then you enter the battlefield and your opponent has an army of 8 monks and 8 heavy cavs, all with honour 9 ... or something like that, just think about how much would those cost... and the amount of koku spent is logged in your log file even when someone is a bit less obvious

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  28. #28

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    i m with u
    It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member qwertyuiop's Avatar
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    Jaydee has the most logical solution.
    Satake, what you mention is called hacking into someones computer!

    On the right wing making a program for this is totally useless and a waste of time. If you already started you will find out soon enough.

    If CA knows about it CA fix it, we don't do work for them. They fix there own problems, if it isn't fast enough you don't just make a whole program to correct it all the sudden.

    Other things that have been mentioned are a little different.

    Image that you found a bug in windows that exposed a single pixel from the top right hand corner of your sceen to a hacker. Do you go out and code a very complicated program to track who is looking at your pixel and block them?

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member qwertyuiop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by High Voltage:
    Originally posted by Krasturak
    You have to understand that the developers did not code in multiplayer cheats. They added single player cheats which are accessed in single player only. It is nearly impossible to stop someone from making a trainer or hack to cheat in multiplayer games, because whenever they do fix a found hack, someone makes another.

    You must remember there are ways around any software, some just more difficult than others.

    [/QUOTE]

    It isn't impossible just like Its not impossible for me to read you thoughts But it can be made quite challenging.

    With some precautions the game will not be hacked for one reason, people would rather hack say the pentegon than your mp game.


    we got Packet Encyption,checksums..., if you can trust using your criedit card on the net you can trust that the data in a mp game is transfered right. don't ask me about encyption though!

    self modifying code

    Who has what data, what can be changed, what is transfered when... What if all your units all the sudden get +9 honor, but on the other computer they are still the same?
    In most games the only way around that is the hacker being the host!


    That is enough right? I could ramble some more if more convincing is required.


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