RTW unit rank depth?

[Marquis of Roland]

I've never got around to asking this, and its probably in the guides, but what's the best rank-depth (number of ranks in your unit) for certain units?

As we know in MTW swords are 2-3 ranks deep, spears 4-5, pikes 6-7(?).

I am interested in rank-depth of following groups:
Roman legions (hastati to urban cohorts, their depth is probably the same right?)
Non-phalanx spear-armed infantry (triarii, libyans, gallic warbands, etc.)
non-roman infantry (chosen swords, chosen axe, iberians, etc.)
light and heavy cavalry
different types of missile units (I deploy these 2 ranks deep regardless of type tell me if that is wrong)

Phalanx-type units I assume should be the number of effective ranks plus maybe 3-4 ranks reserve (to prevent a cav. charge breakthrough, I've had Praetorian cav break through 6 ranks of pikemen).

Thanks

[professorspatula]

Ranks don't tend to be as important as in MTW. Aside from phalanx units, I don't recall there being any noticable rank bonuses or penalties.

Hoplites should ideally be in 3 ranks minimum (I recommend 5, 6-7 if the hoplite is a low level and the enemy has lots of strong cavalry ), and Pikes should be 4-5 ranks minimum, with another couple extra for reserves/absorbing enemy charge.

I typically use 4 ranks for Legionary/Pilum units, and 4 for most other units to be honest, except archers and skirmishers which I use less and spread them out. I don't think there are accuracy penalties for having deep ranks for missile troops in RTW though.

Ranks should really just be set to match whatever the enemy has to throw at you. If you're worried about cavalry, use more ranks; if you have better infantry, you can use less ranks and use a wider line and hope any excess units automatically start to flank and wrap around the opposing unit. As there are no penalties for having numerous units occuping the same space, you can just mass-attack the enemy in one big cluster anyway, thus removing the need for rank bonuses.

I find cavalry and chariots are often better with several ranks for a frontal charge, although if you are charging the rear of a unit, having a wider front rank instead of lots of narrow ranks means you'll probably kill a lot more troops when the cavalry smashes into the back of the enemy unit. That applies to most of the other units too really. There's no great science to ranks in RTW. I'd add that more ranks tend to be for more defensive reasons (withstanding attacks), and less for more offensive manoeuvres.

[Quietus]

Personally, I just approximate. Deep enough to absorb frontal assaults and wide enough to prevent the enemy unit from wrapping around your unit.

[The Stranger]

i use 5 for hoplites, 6-8 for pikemen, 4 for legionaries. for other i don't really have a typical rank depth. i would recommend 2-3 rows for heavy cav. this increases the shock value.

[bodidley]

Theoretically, if you increase the frontal "surface" of a missle unit then the men in front would be able to use their weapons more effectively. However, because of the way units hit targets as a mass in RTW, if the unit is in a dense block or column, the strike pattern of the missiles will be much denser and therefore achieve more kills. Try it with the legionary pila

[The Stranger]

the pilum is so awesome, i eliminated 240 men with 6 volleys. that's 40 men per volley and a average of 1 out of 4 pilum kills.

[magnum]

There is no inherent penelty for depth of missle units like there was in MTW, so you can have very deep missle formations and still be extremely effective.

As for infantry units, while there are bonuses for depth, they aren't great enough to compensate for the bonus one gets for 'wrapping.' Wrapping is where the men of your unit wraps around the edges of the enemys formation. It can also go the other way, the enemy wrapping around your formation. As such, about the most important factor in depth is 'wide enough that your front is equal or greater than theirs.' Remember though that vs cavalry/chariots its better to have a deep formation as that tends to engulf the charging unit into had-to-hand fighting. So theres a trade off that depends more on who/what you are facing more than enything else.

[hoom]

I actually tend to go for roughly square with flank infantry & cavs.
This is at least partially because I use huge units & it can be hard to maneuvre properly with the units out wide.

[Kagemusha]

I also use Huge units,but i like my cavalry in three ranks.I almost newer charge to on unit but i order them to charge behind or next to on unit.Wrapping with cavalry.

[The Stranger]

could do. but i think pursuing is bugged. it never charges a running unit from his direct angle but, always tries to get behind it. when fighting cav, i loose precious time this way. and it's very frustrating.

[Kagemusha]

could do. but i think pursuing is bugged. it never charges a running unit from his direct angle but, always tries to get behind it. when fighting cav, i loose precious time this way. and it's very frustrating.

Im with you on this one the pursuig cavary on RTW seems to me bit stupid.While they could just punish those running enemies.They do those stupid maneuvers and distance themselves from the enemy.Usually when i chase the enemy i order my whole wings of cavalry to charge on the same direction where enemies are runnig if they pass the enemy i charge back at them.

[Oaty]

8-10 ranks deep for me. Very effective against cavalry but of course the unit has to be standing still.

Also I increased the default depth for the A.I. with 6-8 ranks for most infantry and the A.I. comes out with increased morale and units that stay in the fray longer.

So depth definately adds morale. I don't reccomend less than 5 ranks deep for most infantry units as it can lead into the unit getting broken into 2.

[Marquis of Roland]

Good points, thanks for all the info. Particularly useful for me is knowing that there are no rank penalties for missile units, now I don't have to stretch my archers out in those ridiculously long lines.

I usually keep my infantry in 5-6 ranks deep, so I guess I've been doing everything ok.... I just keep thinking back to how Hannibal boxed in the Romans at Cannae....

[gardibolt]

Sorry for the Total Noob question, but how does one change the rank depth of a unit?

[Kagemusha]

Sorry for the Total Noob question, but how does one change the rank depth of a unit?

Choose a unit and press your left mouse button and drag your mouse while holding down the button.

[The Stranger]

it's way easier than MTW.

Kamegusha

i do exactly the same thing, but i still don't like it. also heavy cav is just as fast as my light cav, and that's just stupid, how can metal armoured 10 kg equipment wearing plowhorse riding big assed cavalry be as fast as gentle leather wearing jav cav???

[Kagemusha]

it's way easier than MTW.

Kamegusha

i do exactly the same thing, but i still don't like it. also heavy cav is just as fast as my light cav, and that's just stupid, how can metal armoured 10 kg equipment wearing plowhorse riding big assed cavalry be as fast as gentle leather wearing jav cav???

Maybe they use steroids?Emperor Emu1

[The Stranger]

probably.

[Quietus]

Choose a unit and press your left mouse button and drag your mouse while holding down the button.

It's right-click (hold) and drag.

For older games I think it is left-click (hold) drag

[Kagemusha]

It's right-click (hold) and drag.

For older games I think it is left-click (hold) drag

Yes.Quietus is right.I dont seem to know whats left and whats right.

[hoom]

The hold & drag is the normal way.
(I STILL want my left click & drag back )
You can also use '[' & ']' to do it in situ (doesn't work for groups or units in phalanx)

Also I increased the default depth for the A.I. with 6-8 ranks for most infantry and the A.I. comes out with increased morale and units that stay in the fray longer.

Interesting, how easy is that to do? Do you know if anyones done it for RTR 5.4? preferably in a nice tidy package...

[Red Harvest]

This is one of the weakeness of RTW unfortunately. Spear/phalanx units should benefit greatly from depth, but do not--they should also really suffer from lack of depth. Archers should suffer from depth but do not (except for some range/skirmish penalties at extreme depths.) MTW did both aspects better.

[The Stranger]

true, but phalanx units do benefit from their depth. esspacially pikemen

[Orda Khan]

This is one of the weakeness of RTW unfortunately. Spear/phalanx units should benefit greatly from depth, but do not--they should also really suffer from lack of depth. Archers should suffer from depth but do not (except for some range/skirmish penalties at extreme depths.) MTW did both aspects better.

Likewise, when I order a unit of archers to target a unit, my orders apply to all the archers in my unit. Unfortunately, in MTW, very often it was the case that only the front rank fired because the second and/or third were still out of range and the whole unit would now stop instead of moving until all were in range!!! That is stupid and was an annoying bug. This was a problem that could get your archer/pav unit into deficit quite quickly and leave you at a disadvantage. MTW spears were about as much good as a chocolate fire guard

.......Orda

[Red Harvest]

true, but phalanx units do benefit from their depth. esspacially pikemen

No, not really. They do best in rather thin lines. Most casualties occur on the corners so widening the frontage is beneficial to a point. Doing 1vs1 testing non phalanx formations wrap around causing casualties on the sized. Running only 4 deep or so worked best back when I was playing. The only reason I went that deep was to allow for casualties thinning the depth, otherwise 3 or even 2 could work as well.

[The Stranger]

but wouldn't pikemen do better if all the pikes are used, not just the 4. in 4 deep it uses 4 pikes in 6 deep it uses....eh 4

[Red Harvest]

2 lines deep worked quite well for phalanx units in some tests in the game...better than 4. However, the formation was brittle and unwieldy (as one would expect.)

[Marquis of Roland]

If you only had a rank depth of 2 for spear/phalanx units, wouldn't a well-placed cavalry charge break right through?

[The Stranger]

yeah was thinking of that too.

[gardibolt]

Thanks for the tip on the rank changes!