Victimhood: Rhetoric or reality?

[Tribesman]

He does?
Yes he does , he writes a hell of a lot , check out the archives of Townhall or Jewish World Review , they carry all his recent articles .

[Spino]

He does?
Yes he does , he writes a hell of a lot , check out the archives of Townhall or Jewish World Review , they carry all his recent articles .

So is he really 'pro-apartheid/pro-colonialism' or did he simply look past the blanket statements regarding those particular subjects and provide a particularly objective viewpoint (read as 'bitter pill') on their actual effects? Please provide a link along with a direct quote from Sowell that supports your accusation.

[John86]

Great article. The paranoia in the United States has created counter-discrimination. In truth, the caucasian race is the most discriminated against group.

[A.Saturnus]

Who's to blame is political rhetoric. What is interesting for a social scientist like me, is the question what causes the problem. There must be a causal explanation and no, sorry, "they chose so" is not a causal explanation. The answer is probably far from being simple. It cannot be being a ethnic minority alone, because other minorities apparently don't have the same problem. But in that article the possiblity that it has to do with slavery and discrimination is ruled out prematurely. That at times when discrimination was stronger, these problems were not so apparent, doesn't mean it isn't the cause today, because the entire social climate in the US is different now.
As I said, it's a difficult problem, but simplifications don't help.

[Kanamori]

It can be hard to give people sympathy sometimes. E.g., a, black, family friend grew up in a poor family and he worked hard, and he got a good education for himself. He became a doctor, and now his family disowned him, because he "sold out to whitey" by being a doctor I know that it may just be a sucess sorry, but whining will only get you so far in life; you have to put forward the effort to meet the solution to the problem halfway.

[Aurelian]

Some argue that the state of the black family is the result of the legacy of slavery, discrimination and poverty. That has to be nonsense. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were nuclear families, comprised of two parents and children. In New York City in 1925, 85 percent of kin-related black households had two parents. In fact, according to Herbert Gutman in The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom: 1750-1925, "Five in six children under the age of 6 lived with both parents." Therefore, if one argues that what we see today is a result of a legacy of slavery, discrimination and poverty, what's the explanation for stronger black families at a time much closer to slavery -- a time of much greater discrimination and of much greater poverty? I think that a good part of the answer is there were no welfare and Great Society programs.

No, there is a good explanation for this. PBS did a documentary a couple of years ago that included a discussion of exactly what happened in black communities during the early to mid twentieth century.

Notice how Walter Williams cites studies from Northern urban areas in the late-nineteenth to early-twentieth century to suggest that the black family structure was stable in the good old days of segregation and Jim Crow.

Yes, black communities in places like urban Philadelphia, New York, and Chicago were fairly stable during that era.

The turning point was the "Great Migration" era, when Southern black sharecropper families began to move North to take advantage of industrial jobs in Northern cities...

The Great Migration
The Great Migration was the migration of thousands of African-Americans from the South to the North. African Americans were looking to escape the problems of racism in the South and felt they could seek out better jobs and an overall better life in the North. It is estimated that over 1 million African-Americans participated in this mass movement.

The Great Migration created the first large, urban black communities in the North. The North saw its black population rise about 20 percent between 1910 and 1930. Cities such as Chicago, Detroit, New York, and Cleveland saw some of the biggest increases.

World War I and boll weevils were major factors in pulling blacks to the North. The war created a huge demand for labor in the North when it caused millions of men to leave their jobs to serve in the armed forces and forced immigration to slow down. In the South, a boll weevil infestation of the cotton crop that ruined harvests and threatened thousands of African Americans with starvation also caused people to head North.

Railroad companies were so desperate for help that they paid African Americans' travel expenses to the North. While northern labor agents traveled to the South to encourage blacks to leave and go find jobs in the North.

With black labor leaving the South in large numbers, southern planters tried to prevent the outflow, but were ultimately unsuccessful. The more progressive southern employers tried to promise better pay and improved treatment. Others tried to intimidate blacks, even going so far as to board northbound trains and to attack black men and women to try to force them into returning to the South.

Despite the jobs and housing available in the North, the challenges of living in an urban environment were daunting for many of the new migrants.

The stream of migrants continued apace, however, until the Great Depression and World War II caused northern demand for workers to slacken. LINK

Now, one of the effects of this migration was to change the character of black urban life. There was a 'black flight' as the better educated, well-to-do Northern blacks moved to escape from an influx of poorly educated working class blacks. The series documented this phenomenon in Chicago. What was left were large pockets of black folk who had just come from Jim Crow sharecropping and were thus completely unprepared for Northern urban life. They were also actively discrimated against in jobs and housing.

Of course, as we all know, the post war era saw white flight to the suburbs, a hollowing out of urban infrastructure and tax base, and the slow disappearance of urban manufacturing jobs. Those were the conditions that created the black urban underclass... not "welfare and the Great Society programs". Those programs were meant to address the problem of poverty in America in general, not just amongst the black community. Of course, you can argue that black urban families were 'held back' by becoming reliant on those social programs; but the reality is that a different dialect, inferior schooling, and credit and real estate discrimination made it hard for the mass of the black community to improve their economic condition.

Now this doesn't mean that a lot of black folk don't make really bad life choices, and it doesn't mean that black urban culture isn't toxic, it just means that there are real historical reasons for the economic and physical separation of the black population. Ultimately those reasons do go back to the enslavement, suppression, and discrimination that that community faced for hundreds of years. In many ways, it's remarkable how much progress has been made over the last 40 odd years.

The reason why so many blacks are skeptical of the Republican party is that they so obviously pander to the Southern good old boys that made it their hobby to keep black people 'in their place'. Reagan announced his candidacy in Philadephia, Mississippi - a place famous only for the murder of three civil rights workers. The Republican "Southern Strategy" and its call for "state's rights" and "law and order" was rightly interpreted by black Americans as a choice to jettison the traditionally black Republican vote in exchange for the votes of southern white racists. Southern Strategy.

Here's a piece from "The Black Slate " that lays out pretty well why black Americans weren't thrilled with the Republican party in the Reagan era.

Ultimately, the modern Republican party offers very little to black working class America. The Republican party is anti-minimum wage, it's anti-union, it cuts student financial aid... it's for concentrating wealth in the hands of those who already hold wealth... rather than using our common-wealth to make it easier for everyone to pursue their individual goals.

[Idaho]

I would like to see such statistics cross referenced with general socio/economic stats.

I find the idea of wealthy americans blaming the vast numbers of poor and underpriverlidged for their own plight pretty pathetic.

[Don Corleone]

And I find the fact that you so undervalue a large portion of the population as to assume they have no ability to affect their own lives, that they are completely and utterly beholden to wealthy America to be kind to them....patronizing and pretty pathetic.

[Spino]

I find the idea of wealthy americans blaming the vast numbers of poor and underpriverlidged for their own plight pretty pathetic.

So that means you're giving us middle class conservative types who agree with these wealthy Americans a free pass on the matter?

I find your tone regarding wealthy Americans to be quite amusing...

When you progress from one tax bracket to the next because of your own hard work it has a funny way of changing your outlook on the world and on those who had the same opportunities you did as a child. Please take note that a large percentage of those arrogant wealthy Americans come from not so wealthy backgrounds. America is THE country for self made men and women (i.e. those that qualify as 'well off' or wealthy), our history is polluted with success stories of people who rose from humble beginnings. There are Asian kids I grew up with whose parents were, as they say, 'off the boat' and took whatever menial jobs as seamstresses, cooks and physical laborers they could find. Those same immigrants saw their kids go on to earn salaries in the upper 5 and lower 6 figures because they instilled in them an excellent work ethic. A good friend of mine (Greek/Jewish) was born to a father who was a mailman and a mother who was a social worker. He and his siblings lived in a rent controlled apartment, shared a single bedroom, wore inexpensive clothes and probably never shopped at an expensive dept. store except for the occasional holiday gift. Despite their obviously humble origins my friend and his brother went on to start their own software company in California and were eventually making money hand over fist.

To put it bluntly there simply aren't enough 'old money' families here in the States to decry our upper class as a fixed and immovable 'blue blood' aristocracy. The socio-economic 'glass ceiling' effect that still exists in Europe doesn't exist here in the States and if and where it does exist, it's more of a nuisance than an outright obstacle. Sure, we still have our share of nepotism and 'rich kid on the fast track to success' stories but for the rest of us good old hard work still pays off. So when you read about these wealthy Americans bitching and moaning as to why their fellow Americans in lower tax brackets ought to trade in their excuses for hard work maybe you ought to take it for what it is rather than what you'd like it to be.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I was never able to figure out who the evil white man (i.e. me) caused all the pain and suffering in the minorities of America. I mean,if you look at the statistics, blacks are offing each other in record numbers all over America! The number one killer of crips today aren't evil white rascists who are evil just because they aren't black, but other Crips, not even their rival gang, the Bloods! It's scary how that happens, yet they still have the nerve to shove blame around at everyone else. I mean, Lincoln freed the slaves over a hundred and fifty years ago, and yet we, the whites, are still the evil devils that opressed the poor struggling black man.
If anything, these blame casters are only making the black man even worse off. It's them that commit the crime in the streets, with their gangs and their drugs. And yet, the "evil white rascist" American government has to contain the crime, with almost no help from the Black communities. If anything, the black communities make it worse for the police, they hid their "gangsta's" and "homies" in their ranks, and when the cops try to get near, another innocent police officer is murdered in cold blood. If they don't like the conditions, they should try to improve it themselves, not begin calling all us White Americans evil and rascist. Because, you know what, I ain't rascist. I give everyone a fair chance, despite the fact that I may not trust certain peoples at a glance. If I'm so rascist, then why do I have several black friends? They do fine too, they're all getting good enough grades and none of them are living in poverty. And not once have they blamed the White man for their problems.
The Black community wants a black president, and they think it's rascist that they don't get one. But isn't the opposite kind of true? I mean, if a president is elected just because he's black, and not because of his competence and skill, wouldn't that be rascist against the White, Hispanic, whatever candidates that ran? I think so! And, they say they want better conditions!?! Here are some facts:

• Collages in America give preferance to black and minority students over white students, even if the white student is more qualified to fill the position as a student of the university.
• Blacks and other minorites in America, when applying for a legal or government position (Police Officer, Fireman, Lawyer, etc) are given a differant, eaiser test then what White people are.
• Affirmative action states that if you don't sell your house to a black man, you can get arrested. I'm not sure of the exact reasons and prerequisits, but I do know that you can.

I'm totally sick of this bashing of my race. Although blacks can use the minority card against being called rascists, I am going to say this right now, out loud in a public forum.
Blacks and other minorities who blame the White man for all of their problems instead of taking responsibility for themselves are rascist; if they use an excuse such as "slavery has tied us down" or "we are oppressed in America" they are rascist.
There I said it. And you know what, it's true! Isn't rascism a hatred or prejudice against a certain race? In fact, the fricken UN says

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

(the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)
Is that not what these people do? They discriminate against all whites, blaming them for their problems instead of taking the initiative and trying to fix them. Most of these blame casters still collect a welfare check; paid for mainly by the White Majority of America (77% of America is white, and most of the Upper classes are white).
I'm going to shut up now, because, to be quite frank, all this typing is giving me a headache after a long, hard day. I don't mean to be mean or rude in the above, but if I do offend anyone (by calling the a rascist etc) I do apoligize, it's just that that is what I beleive and you know what, I really don't care if I offend anyone as long as the truth gets said. Thank you.

[John86]

I
Blacks and other minorities who blame the White man for all of their problems instead of taking responsibility for themselves are rascist; if they use an excuse such as "slavery has tied us down" or "we are oppressed in America" they are rascist.
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Exactly. Its caused so much counter-discrimination. For example: A black comedian can make fun of a white man becasue he is white without a penalty. If a white comedian dares to make the smallest comment about a black man becasue hes black, its off to court for him. If a white man complains about the racist humor, the black comedian has the excuse: "your just saying that becasue im black."

[Tribesman]

Exactly. Its caused so much counter-discrimination. For example: A black comedian can make fun of a white man becasue he is white without a penalty. If a white comedian dares to make the smallest comment about a black man becasue hes black, its off to court for him. If a white man complains about the racist humor, the black comedian has the excuse: "your just saying that becasue im black."

Has Sacha Cohen ever been taken to court for Ali G ? Or doesn't he count .
Though the Khazakhstan Embassy in London did complain that his Borat character gave a negative impression of their country .

[Kaiser of Arabia]

lol Borat in USA has to be the greatest TV thing ever...
the country song....HAHAHAHA

[Steppe Merc]

I don't know, has there ever been a black community? I know it's a saying, but I never really got it. I always assumed that black Southern Baptists weren't really that similar to street blacks. I know it was a while ago, but Martin Luther King Jr. fought against different types of racism than Malcom X, and their tactics were hardly similar (well, right before Malcom's death they were but...)
In fact, one of my black friends from Tennesee (can't spell it... isn't at all like some of the gansgta types in my school. Of course, you can't be a a "street" personwhen you live in my town, the houses are insanely expensive...

I really am not sure were I stand on this. I honestly believe that racism still exists and that blacks and other minorities still aren't equal, and we should still right the wrongs of our past. However, that's only possible if both the government and the minorities work together for equality, not just one or the other.

[John86]

• Collages in America give preferance to black and minority students over white students, even if the white student is more qualified to fill the position as a student of the university.

Good point. This is direct racism to whites. Not allowing a student to attend a college becasue he is white.