A little thing I'd like to see in sieges...

[Jebus]

Troy -the film- is not crap. It's murder in attempt degree against Homer, only failed because of the poor man -or compiler/s- yet dead.

The screen writer should be put against a wall and shot. At least he could have let live some people so we can have the rest of the tale. But, not. Apart from inventing a nice love story between Cassandra and Achilles, he spares Paris, who acts like a sissy, while he kills Menelaus, Ajax and Agamemnon, who never gets back to be murdered by Aegistos and Clitemnestra. Orestes and Electra sure got bored, playing parcheese with Iphigenia, never sacrificed in Aulis.

But, oh, yeh, teenie girls sure had a big time with Brad Pitt half naked around all the movie.

I always found it amusing people would object to a director taking artistic liberties in a work that is pure fiction anyway. For one thing, Homeros probably never existed, and secondly; the Illiad we now know probably has little to do with the original story anyway.

I never saw the movie, but it's funny some people have real problems with this. I mean: who cares? Did anyone really expect that film to be 'true' to the movie?
Because boy, that would make for one sucky movie.

[Sarcasm]

Then you probably have never read the Illiad....

[jerby]

Troy -the film- is not crap. It's murder in attempt degree against Homer, only failed because of the poor man -or compiler/s- yet dead.

The screen writer should be put against a wall and shot. At least he could have let live some people so we can have the rest of the tale. But, not. Apart from inventing a nice love story between Cassandra and Achilles, he spares Paris, who acts like a sissy, while he kills Menelaus, Ajax and Agamemnon, who never gets back to be murdered by Aegistos and Clitemnestra. Orestes and Electra sure got bored, playing parcheese with Iphigenia, never sacrificed in Aulis.

But, oh, yeh, teenie girls sure had a big time with Brad Pitt half naked around all the movie.

The Story sucked. i expected it to be more like the awsome book. with Menelaos living, ajax's suicide, Agamemnon living. Paris nOt being a pussy, and Patroclus being older than Achilles. Sword fights not looking like ballet .and NOT killing 100 people with 120 arrows:they dropped like bushes from arrows shot at them frontally!!
I liked the scenery and Hektor. thats all. teh rest should be shot, hanged, descecrated, shot and hanged again...just as a figure of speech of course

[Jebus]

Then you probably have never read the Illiad....

Unfortunately, I had to read translate large chunks of it from Latin in high school.

So I'm pretty well aware of the original Illiad :-/

[Superbus]

Unfortunately, I had to read translate large chunks of it from Latin in high school.

So I'm pretty well aware of the original Illiad :-/

Latin? Er...who translated it into Latin fromthe original Greek? Seems an unnecessary step

[eadingas]

I suspect Romans :) They were always up to no good :)

[Jebus]

Well, the Illiad wàs a canonical schoolbook in the Roman empire.

I dropped Greek in the second year, and my Latin teacher later on gave me detetion at least once a week, where I had to translate Latin texts, including the Illiad. So there.

[bodidley]

I always found it amusing people would object to a director taking artistic liberties in a work that is pure fiction anyway. For one thing, Homeros probably never existed, and secondly; the Illiad we now know probably has little to do with the original story anyway.

I never saw the movie, but it's funny some people have real problems with this. I mean: who cares? Did anyone really expect that film to be 'true' to the movie?
Because boy, that would make for one sucky movie.

Considering that Wolfgang Petersen directed the masterpiece Das Boot, Peter O'Tool delivered one of the best performances in the history of film as Lawrence of Arabia, and Brad Pitt has displayed his talent in 12 Monkeys as well as Fight Club, I would suspect that the crapocity of Troy had little to do with innovative artistic license. This is especially true when one considers that story in the movie=crap, Illiad+Quintus of Smyrna=not crap

P.S.

P.P.S. No hard feelings

[anonymous_joe]

Troy was, and always will be, a terrible film.

As a 'dramatisation' of the Iliad, erm, no deities, no Diomedes, no Aeneas, Patrokolos that young minx etc etc. Utter shite. And Paris wasn't a wimp, he wouldn't fight for the same reason as Achilleus, people didn't respect him. Though Menelaus does beat him in that fight of theirs.

[Jebus]

Hey, I never defended Troy: the movie. Heck, I never even saw it.
I was speaking of artistic liberties in general.

[Malrubius]

I dropped Greek in the second year, and my Latin teacher later on gave me detetion at least once a week, where I had to translate Latin texts, including the Illiad. So there.

You, getting detention every week? I can't imagine why!

[Dux Corvanus]

Jebus, I have nothing against 'artistic liberties', but if they include taking a masterpiece of universal literature -such as Shakespeare's 'Macbeth', for example- and make Macbeth and his wife inhabitant in a planet built by a breed of intelligent mutant ducks, while Duncan narrowly escapes from death by jumping on his motorbike while the witches chase him in a F-14, then expect that public attracted to cinema by a title "based in Shakespeare's immortal play" may feel a bit disappointed...

'Artistic liberties' should include 'artistic creation', instead of taking some other's work and convert it into... a silly popcorn-entertainment.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I am looking forward (as disappointed as I was; as incredibly and sadly disappointed as I was) to showing it to myth classes though in the evening for extra credit and having discussions on what the hell was wrong with it and why it stinks and so forth and so on. When someone does something really well it's often hard for a Myth 101 student to pick up on all the things they did well, but when someone screws something up bigtime, it's easier to try and piece together things or at least get them to recognize ways it differs and how it could have been better or more accurate.

[Jebus]

make Macbeth and his wife inhabitant in a planet built by a breed of intelligent mutant ducks, while Duncan narrowly escapes from death by jumping on his motorbike while the witches chase him in a F-14,

Hell, I'd pay to see that!

[bodidley]

I am looking forward (as disappointed as I was; as incredibly and sadly disappointed as I was) to showing it to myth classes though in the evening for extra credit and having discussions on what the hell was wrong with it and why it stinks and so forth and so on. When someone does something really well it's often hard for a Myth 101 student to pick up on all the things they did well, but when someone screws something up bigtime, it's easier to try and piece together things or at least get them to recognize ways it differs and how it could have been better or more accurate.

I mostly wasn't dissapointed in the movie because of its gross divergance from the story (which did make it worse), but because it was a poorly made movie despite the high-budget production, and the stellar cast and crew. In terms of movies that are just meant to be amusing diversions, I prefer that they last no longer than 90 minutes, otherwise they are just a sadistic form of water-torture

[Simetrical]

You know, I think a thread split might be a good idea about now . . .

-Simetrical

[khelvan]

Nah, I don't mind threadjacking. If these guys want to go off on tangents, I say let them! Unless the participants really want their own thread...

[anonymous_joe]

Well if siege-mechanics are definitely hadrcoded, then that thread has died a death anyway. I guess it's time for pastures new and pastures green...

[Sarcasm]

Unfortunately, I had to read translate large chunks of it from Latin in high school.

So I'm pretty well aware of the original Illiad :-/

Hmmm...well I guess it is a matter of taste then. I love epics.

About Siege Engines, in the Iberian peninsula campaigns, for example, in the siege of Numantia, more than 300 Catapulta (smaller, bolt or small stone-throwing engines) and at least 50 Ballistae (heavier stone-throwing engines), were used to protect a stone wall, that Scipio ordered built, which forced the city to starvation. While the smaller ones were positioned all over the wall and towers, the larger ones had their own emplacements.

There are also records of Siege towers, constructed by Greeks and Carthaginians that carried a lot of siege engines, some of really great size.

When Scipio took control of New Carthage, on the Eastern coast of the peninsula, it is reported, he captured 120 large catapults, 281 smaller catapults, 23 large ballistae and 53 ballistae of smaller calliber. And at the end of the 3rd Punic war, more than 2000 siege engines of various types were taken from Carthage itself. So siege artillery was probably more prevalent, when defending cities or fortified positions, than we may think, at first.

There are records of stones of 900g for the smaller catapults and from 12kg to 70Kg for the larger Ballistae, and ranges of at least 300m for the smaller engines.

I've actually seen a small oxybeles fire, and it's surprisingly accurate up to 50m or so, capable of hitting particular parts of a dummy. Farther than that or with heavier engines I do not know. Also it should be significantly more accurate to fire from an elevated position (i.e a tower) than from the sieging position.

Let's get this thread back on track!

[Idomeneas]

Hell, I'd pay to see that!

ok a suggestion. Now that you finished school ans iliad is not mandatory go buy a nice translation of the book although the sound of original is magical imo. Im sure that you ll see that Homer had by far more interesting plot, characters and was much more objective, praising heroic deeds equally unlike that chewing gum Peterson who presented simply Greeks as a crazy mob that slaughtered everything after 3 days sitting on the beach.

Artistic liberties were the ones of Peter Jackson on LOTR. Troy was a massacre of historic-mythology. I wonder did they read the actual book?
By the way try reading the Age of Bronze comic. THIS is adaptation and artistic liberty.

Sing godess.... (see my sig)

[ENSAIS]

when I saw the previews for kindom of heaven, I was sure it would be another Troy. I was pleasantly surprised. It actually is a good film ( not great, but good) IMHO.

[Jebus]

ok a suggestion. Now that you finished school ans iliad is not mandatory go buy a nice translation of the book although the sound of original is magical imo. Im sure that you ll see that Homer had by far more interesting plot, characters and was much more objective, praising heroic deeds equally unlike that chewing gum Peterson who presented simply Greeks as a crazy mob that slaughtered everything after 3 days sitting on the beach.

Dude, I just told you I practically know it by heart. Reading a translation of it won't really change much.

[Superbus]

Dude, I just told you I practically know it by heart. Reading a translation of it won't really change much.

Dude, you just told the community you spent a lot of time translating it from a language in which it was not written to another.
"removed baiting attempt - barocca".
'Cause Idomeneas seems to know a little greek, you know.

[jerby]

well, i also had greek. i bored my self to death for a year (the first year was nic,e second sucked) and i only truly understood teh actual lines when i read te translation. great book.

'O dear friends, if we, by fleeing from battle, would be young and immortal for ever, i would certainly not fight in the first line and also wouldnt ask you to join me. But now countless demons of death surround us-lets go...'

gotta love it. i did my best translating dutch to english. but its just impossible.

[eadingas]

Umm... guys, stop flaming jerby just because he doesn't agree with you. Translating bits of Illiad from Latin is perfectly regular exercise in latin class. Don't know where you got the opinion that because of that he somehow knows Illiad less, or something.

[Mongoose]

Jerby? you mean jebus, right?

[eadingas]

Well, just stop flaming anyone ;)

[Idomeneas]

Umm... guys, stop flaming jerby just because he doesn't agree with you. Translating bits of Illiad from Latin is perfectly regular exercise in latin class. Don't know where you got the opinion that because of that he somehow knows Illiad less, or something.

We re just discussing not flamming anybody. I just thing that when something is mandatory as a class its reasonable to hate it and not try to see beneath the surface. Same thing happened to me in sclool with Xenophon's anabasis. I was so bored to examine that grammar and syntax of that text that i never minded to actually notice how great work it was. After school was past, i felt really bored one day and having read everything in my library i started reading anabasis just like that. BANG!!! i was amazed! like i had never read it 100 times before. The adventures the missfortunes the journey! it had everything you need to be hooked.
So Jebus give old homer one more try. If people are amazed for thousands of years by this story there must be a good reason

[Jebus]

We re just discussing not flamming anybody. I just thing that when something is mandatory as a class its reasonable to hate it and not try to see beneath the surface. Same thing happened to me in sclool with Xenophon's anabasis. I was so bored to examine that grammar and syntax of that text that i never minded to actually notice how great work it was. After school was past, i felt really bored one day and having read everything in my library i started reading anabasis just like that. BANG!!! i was amazed! like i had never read it 100 times before. The adventures the missfortunes the journey! it had everything you need to be hooked.
So Jebus give old homer one more try. If people are amazed for thousands of years by this story there must be a good reason

Well hey, I never said I didn't like the Illiad.
Perhaps I should clear up some misunderstandings here.

1. I read the original.
2. I liked it
3. I never saw 'Troy'
4. My point was that it's pretty logical that a director is going to change some things when he's making a screenplay of a 3200 year-old-story.

Somehow, this ended up with people accusing me of not liking the Illiad...

[jerby]

Umm... guys, stop flaming jerby just because he doesn't agree with you. Translating bits of Illiad from Latin is perfectly regular exercise in latin class. Don't know where you got the opinion that because of that he somehow knows Illiad less, or something.

I post one reply, stating that IMHO the illiad is phenomanal to read when fully pre-transalted. and suddenly Eadingsgas says everybody si agaianst me...i posted 1 thiny quote from homer....wat did i do wrong?