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Thread: Routing verus withdrawing.

  1. #1
    Member Member Rodhern's Avatar
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    Almost can't wait for the strategy guides to come up, so I just have to sneak in a few questions here . I have only played for a week, but am wondering:

    1) When would I rout (Ctrl-O) a unit instead of simply withdrawing (Ctrl-W) it? (The manual is not much help - saying that the entire army will withdraw together)

    2) In Campaign Mode what is the best (most entertaining) unitsize?



    [This message has been edited by Rodhern (edited 10-29-2000).]

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    I believe a major difference is that a "rout" affects the selected unit whereas "withdraw" is an order issued to the whole army (I think I saw this in the European game manual).

    I have used "rout" in one situation. When I have an army with more than 16 units, but a bad mix of units is part of the initial 16 on the battlefield, I'll place a few of the undesired units at the edge of the map and then rout them so they immediately leave the field. Hopefully a better unit will then come on the field as a reinforcement. Examples of "bad mixes" are: gun units in a rain storm, a very small unit (20 men or less) selected for the battle, or too many of a certain type of unit (14 of the 16 are archers or vis versa). I don't do this too much though. A consideration: I haven't noticed if deliberately routing a unit affects its honor.

    Gregoshi
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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    You can withdraw individual units (such as when your archers run out of arrows); it helps save the unit for later, and brings on any waiting reinforcements.
    If you rout a unit, it runs just like a withdraw, and gets away from hand-to-hand combat a bit easier. The downside is routing units can easily be run down and destroyed by chasing opponents, whereas withdrawing troops will stop and fight, and if you change your mind you can turn them around and bring them back.
    Personally, I don't ever use the rout feature, preferring to withdraw (one is not faster than the other in terms of actual movement), especially in river battles where I can expend my missile units then bring on the hand-to-hand combat units to storm/defend.
    p.s. I like 60 for campaign unit sizes, since the bigger battles at the middle to end of the game don't get bogged down. But it's really a matter of taste.


    [This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 10-29-2000).]

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    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Beat me to it Solypist

    Rodhern! Soly is absolutely on the button about Routing/Withdrawing. However, I personally prefer 120 man units. They're bigger and look more realistic plus they reduce the likelihood of having to play reinforcement battles in the campaign game.

    But like Soly says, its a matter of taste, and the performance of your PC.

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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Obake's Avatar
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    Soly is right on the money in that withdrawing units will still fight whereas routing units will not. If I remember correctly though, routing units run and withdrawing units march, so there will be a definite speed difference. The other issue that you need to be concerned with is that if you rout a unit and they run through another unit, that unit will need to make a morale check and you run the risk of additional units routing on their own!

    For myself, I like the 60-man unit size. It allows me more flexibility in manouvering/flanking given the size of the battlefields. 120 looks great, but it is more of a lumbering around than anything else. Compare it to boxing. Lightweight fights are very quick with a lot of action, while the heavyweights are much more deliberate in their approach.

    Obake

    [This message has been edited by Obake (edited 10-30-2000).]
    Obake

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Note to self: check out the "withdraw" command.

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    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
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    I found that 80 men/unit works best for me. My machine doesn't gag, and you're not dealing with cumbersome numbers. With 120 men, trying to stretch an archer unit out into two ranks doesn't fit into the screen easily. Bigger armies than 60-men units, but manageable.

    -- B)

  8. #8
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    When you rout, you get those little silver arrows (on the unit data box) meaning they are running.
    When you withdraw, you also get those little silver arrows.
    Try routing and withdrawing two of the same tpe unit. They move the same speed.

  9. #9
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    I prefer the rout command !

    If you withdraw you see your army simply routing !



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    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
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    From what I tried, you can't call off a Rout, but you can stop men from withdrawing, and call them back into the fight. The difference grammatically between the two words would imply that Withdraw is an organized pulling-back from the field, while a Rout is closer to "Run away!" I wonder if this affects the honor of the unit? Or the morale of the other units? We know that fleeing units can scare the men from that same army, so would routing men still be considered fleeing?

    -- B)

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    Member Member lanza27's Avatar
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    I never rout, I fight til I die. HAHA. just kidding.

    Well first, someone at the beginning of this thread said they can't wait to see the strategy guides. Well while the ORG has been rebuilding this fabulous site, Myself and a few others have done nothing but write strategy guides for STW. Our whole site is dedicated to it. So if you are looking for some guides take a look at our site www.geocities.com/totalwarshogun

    As for routing, i have routing troops stop half way tothe end of the map. Even if I order them to rout they stop. This is so annoying when I'm expecting that fresh unit to come on once that unit is gone. However,when I withdraw a unit they usually don't stop but continue right off the map.

    So who knows?
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Obake's Avatar
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    I'll try your suggestion Soly. Most of my experience with withdraw has been online and I'll admit that I haven't really paid attention to how fast the unit moves!

    What I think would make more sense is that withdrawing units pull back while maintaining their facing! Like Zap said, it's more orderly than "run away runaway". Troops withdrawing from combat are going to back out of combat, they're not going to turn around and walk/run from it.

    The downside to withdrawing though is if they are the only unit you have in a melee. Since the enemy unit is attacking, they can't withdraw. When they try and do so, they turn their backs on the enemy, fail their morale check and rout! I think that's what has been happening to you Terazawa! Try withdrawing when you have more than one unit engaged against an enemy unit.

    Obake
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    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
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    If you rout units can still rally if they have enough honour, can they rally if you withdraw? Is withdraw easily canceled? Can't say as I've ever used that button- just danced with the units that brung me
    All we are saying....is give peas a chance - Jolly Green Giant

  14. #14

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    In addition if I remember correctly it
    was mentioned somewhere that routing
    troops have a negative effect on the
    morale of all your units they run through
    while withdrawing units don't do this.

    The only time I order a rout is when
    my idiotic yari cavalry won't disengage
    the enemy archers even though there are
    2 units of yari samurai about to flank
    them. For some reason my Yari cavalry
    always seem to take their time withdrawing.
    Usually wind up routing them and then
    rallying them after they ignore numerous
    double clicks and withdrawal orders.

    -J

  15. #15
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    i think the deal with the cavis that they seem to always have to reform into a coherent unit again before being able to do anything. this takes valuable time, especially if they're about to be flanked.
    foot soldiers seem to respond/reform faster with commands such as rout or withdraw. i dont know why.

  16. #16
    Member Member clairobscur's Avatar
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    solypist : I suppose it was more difficult and longer in the reality (except perhaps for mongol hordes)for a cavalry unit to reform, change facing, directions, etc...It seems logical, but i don't know if it 's true. And by the way, from what I know about lancers units, it should be quite long for the yaris too to change facing.

    By the way, and refering too to obake post about withdrawed units facing, I believe that units should be allowed to change facing automatically when attacked. Not only it would be easier to handle but it seems logical. I don't think any regiment commander at any time would have allowed ennemies to charge his flank, hoping that the general will notice the situation and send appropriate order.
    Of course, there's a lot of instance when you *don't want* units to change facing when they're about to be attacked, but I think the "hold position" button should be used in that instance.

    And...what is this "hold position" button about, by the way? I never understood what I was supposed to use it for....

  17. #17
    Member Member Rodhern's Avatar
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    For me "hold position" usually convinces my archers not to change direction of the lines when in "fire at will"-mode.

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    Senior Member Senior Member The Daimyo's Avatar
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    Aha!


    hehe

  19. #19
    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
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    Hold Position is also good for defense - in a battle where you're on the uphill side, and the enemy engages, and then starts to be pushed back, your men will often follw them down the hill to continue the fight. This means that you've just lost your nice hill top and are open on your flank. Hold Postition will keep the men up on the hill, and they'll just let the enemy withdraw. It's sometimes used in bridge battles, too.

    -- B)

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Obake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Black Ship:
    If you rout units you can still rally if they have enough honour; can they rally if you withdraw? Is withdraw easily canceled? Can't say as I've ever used that button- just danced with the units that brung me [/QUOTE]
    Ship, the answer to your question is yes. When it works the way it is supposed to, your units don't route when withdrawing, they just start marching full speed off the map. Only thing you need to do to stop them is hit the backspace key and cancel their orders! Withdraw works just like any other battle command you issue. Only difference is that it's not on the Icon bar up top (or maybe it is, I stopped using it months ago).

    Obake

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  21. #21
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    I like the hold position command myself, for all the reasons given above. What isn't realized by most new players is that your archers/gunmen can fire in more directions than just straight ahead. I think they can fire within a 90 degree angle of their front. But if you're not using the Hold command, they will shift their lines in order to better accomodate a straight-ahead line shot, which can be a problem if you have long lines of archers and combat is going on close by (your men end up lining themselves up right into the enemy).

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    Member Member clairobscur's Avatar
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    Irealized that archers had a wide angle of fire, But i'm wondering if they are really efficient when the target is not in front of them.

    Let's suppose your archers are deployed in a 30 rows wide, 2 row deep formation, and that they're firing on an ennemy unit situated 90░ to the right. In such an instance, if the angle is taken into account, as I read, they should be exactly as inefficacious as a 2 rows wide/ 30 rows deep formation firing in front of it. Is it the case, or not?

  23. #23
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    I'm not sure even the designers could answer such a question, since the degree of accuracy would be (if any) modified by very little (my own opinion after playing several games, esp. bridge battles where archers are not always in the ideal placement is that you might end up with maybe 1 or 2 arrows missing due to this extreme position).
    I slowed the games down and watched as they fired. The amount fired didn't change, casualties on the other side (gaurding yari samurai) pretty much stayed steady from perpendicular and skewed angles. But when I changed the frontage to 5, casualties dropped. This meant that as long as one side of the firing line wasn't out of range, diagonal shooting worked.


    [This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-04-2000).]

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    Member Member clairobscur's Avatar
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    Thanks for this test, soli...

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    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    when i want to get out of battle i always use double click. this saves time for other things!
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