Mars probe 'was doomed' say MPs

[ShadesWolf]

Link to article in full

And people wonder why I have no faith in THIS government....
I would have thought that a full enquiry would have been made into this before the governement decided to put money into it.

Working in cost accounting I know quite abit about investments, and how difficult it is to get outside financial support for things, and how much things have to be investigated before yyou can get you hands on money.

But why should the government care, its not like its their money, its only tax payers money so why bother........ and they can always find some way to spin the blame onto the previous Tory Government.

The ill-fated Beagle 2 Mars probe should never have been given the go-ahead, a powerful MPs' committee has said.
The much-hyped probe was "doomed from the start", the public accounts committee said while criticising the management of civil space activities.

The projects, in partnerships with the government, were "expensive, uncertain, and over-ambitious", it said.

The UK government spent £188m on civil space activities in 2003/04.

The Beagle 2 mission cost an estimated £50m.

The much-trumpeted Beagle 2 probe was supposed to have landed on Mars to look for signs of life on the Red Planet, but nothing was heard from the probe after it was ejected from its mothership, the Mars Express orbiter.

The failure of the mission was a huge blow to Britain's space community and the European Space Agency (Esa).

In a report on Thursday, the committee said poor risk management left the project with "no real prospect of success".

"The project suffered from an over-ambitious time schedule, punishing weight constraints, poor management and uncertain funding," it said.

'Allowance for risk'

Speaking on BBC Radio Five Live Breakfast, Edward Leigh, who chaired the committee when it carried out the inquiry, said: "You probably think we're just boring bean counters but it is public money and we are spending a lot of money on this and frankly the Beagle 2 project failed because, as we said, there was an over-ambitious time-table, there were last-minute technical changes, there was uncertain funding, [and] there was poor risk management.

"Of course it's an ambitious project, of course it's a good project but it's got to be run properly on behalf of the taxpayer."

The government's space activities are carried out by a partnership of 10 government departments, agencies and research councils.

"The British National Space Centre and the Department [of Trade and Industry] should only proceed with such ambitious projects if sufficient resources can be committed from the outset to give a reasonable prospect of success, making due allowance for risk, the committee said.

But Open University planetary scientist Professor Colin Pillinger, who first proposed the Beagle 2 project, told BBC News it was "not a waste of money".

Earlier he defended the right to take risks.

"You do not inspire anybody if it is a forgone conclusion and we are in the business of doing research, he told Five Live:

"The research involved was to answer a question that has puzzled people for thousands of years."

In its report on the activities, the Public Accounts Committee acknowledged space projects were expensive and uncertain, saying some, such as Beagle 2, had failed and others had been delayed.

But it said the partnership had to improve its risk management, and the agencies involved should put in sufficient funding at the outset of a project to identify and mitigate technical and construction risks.

They should also address the risks posed by collaborating with other bodies such as Esa and the US space agency (Nasa), and they should deal with risks explicitly in appraising project funding.

The committee also called on the partnership to look again at the costs of the Galileo project - the European satellite-navigation system.

The partnership has estimated the UK would benefit by £6bn from the project, with an outlay of £78m.

But the committee backed the findings of a previous report which queried the cost and benefits analysis.

It also questioned the procurement system used by Esa. The cost of space programmes are increased by the system which means contracts are not always awarded to the most cost-effective bidder, the committee said.

[bmolsson]

The planets are just to far apart......

[TonkaToys]

It is a damn shame that it didn't work, and I understand what you mean about the fact that the investigation should have been done before they launched it, but this country needs to kick start its drive for innovation.
I for one am pleased to see the government putting money behind such a venture, rather than leaving it to fester in the UK, so that it is driven across the atlantic (or even the channel) to get funding and research done on it, until it is then sold back to us at inflated rates.
Perhaps they could have picked one that worked though.

[ShadesWolf]

Or maybe money better spent would have been on researching the sea, or some form of tidal power, as we are an island and could take a lead in the development of this form of technology.

[zelda12]

My Science Teacher was recently grumbling on the same fact. He was telling us how in the 70's they were planning tidal barrages that could generate power for the country. Then the tories got in and put a bullet through the entire scheme calling it, 'unfeasible'. The plans got lost and the incentive went...

In the end you just have to accept that almost every single problem this country faces is in some small way linked back to the Tories.

[The_Doctor]

Or maybe money better spent would have been on researching the sea, or some form of tidal power, as we are an island and could take a lead in the development of this form of technology.

You Sir have offended me.

In space there is loads of great stuff, like asteroids full of minerals, solar power, aliens, living space etc.

Also we need to colonise as many planets as possible before America gives them stupid names that makes you feel sick.
eg
Liberty
Freedomville
New New York
Bushton
Constitution
White house colony

[zelda12]

Yeah we need some Liverpool's, New London's and the like...

[ShadesWolf]

In the end you just have to accept that almost every single problem this country faces is in some small way linked back to the Tories.

Erm would that we the typical left wing teacher
Yes the tory might have put a bullet through the entire scheme but nuclear power was the answer they came up with.

Under this government, and I dont want to turn this in 'Yes we all know I hate Bliar' we will have nothing. Most of the nuclear power stations will be shut leaving a big whole in the power we require.

[The_Doctor]

Yeah we need some Liverpool's, New London's and the like...

It needs to be in Latin so it sounds cool.

Who stopped Britains space program in favour of Concorde?

Britain did launch a rocket from Australia.

[zelda12]

There's a reason for that...its called getting the green vote and winning elections. Doing the right thing about Nuclear power can go and rot as far as politicians are concerned, as long as they get the vote they're happy and to be honest we are still living in the aftershadow of the anti-nuclear years. Until the populace at large begins to realise that Nuclear is the one hope we can achieve in the time constraints no Politician is ever going to say, "Hey vote for me, I'll build a Nuclear Power station two miles away!"

[ShadesWolf]

You Sir have offended me.

In space there is loads of great stuff, like asteroids full of minerals, solar power, aliens, living space etc.

We have vast areas of the oceans unexplored, it is an ongoing source of power. Why not understand this more than wasting resources on flying to the stars.

currently many countrys do space exploration, why cant we be different.
Once we understand our own planet then we can sell this technology and invest in the space race. We are a clever country yet we could not compete with the likes of USA/ China etc., However, the Oceans could help us

Why not underwater cities etc......

[ShadesWolf]

There's a reason for that...its called getting the green vote and winning elections. Doing the right thing about Nuclear power can go and rot as far as politicians are concerned, as long as they get the vote they're happy and to be honest we are still living in the aftershadow of the anti-nuclear years. Until the populace at large begins to realise that Nuclear is the one hope we can achieve in the time constraints no Politician is ever going to say, "Hey vote for me, I'll build a Nuclear Power station two miles away!"

It isnt just that, you also have to investigate, as a comparison with output from both sources, I seem to remember reading that one nuclear power station is equal to millions of wind turbines output.

So which is greener ? we seem to go from government to government doing little about the growing countries needs for electricity.

yet we can talk about putting trackers in cars to charge for what journey you did, or forcing the population to have an ID card and have to pay £100 for the pleasure.

But we have a problem with passing legisaltion that would force all new houses to have some solar panels built into them, yes this would not cure the problem but any little helps, they could help towards heating water etc....

[The_Doctor]

Why not underwater cities etc......

Jellyfish and other underwater creatures.

How about an underwater city on another planet.

But we have a problem with passing legisaltion that would force all new houses to have some solar panels built into them, yes this would not cure the problem but any little helps, they could help towards heating water etc....

I like that idea. I had that idea a while ago.

Also putting all roads underground.
Having magnetically driven trains in a tube.
Fusion power.
Replacing the working class with robots and the upper class with manakins (who would notice).

[Papewaio]

Looks like history repeating itself.

Christopher Columbus certainly found it hard to find money for exploration.

As to the seas they are heavily exploited as it is. Alot of zones are overfished and some economies are so dependent on fishing they cannot survive as the catches diminish.

Also isn't it rather cowardly to give up the moment something goes wrong? Most Mars probes don't get to Mars, at least the British ones don't crash because of metric to imperial conversion errors. Going on in the face of adversity is what makes a champion. Is this the New Britain? Lets give up now and let someone else do it?

Why not exhange the CAP for an EU space program...

[TonkaToys]

Looks like history repeating itself.

Christopher Columbus certainly found it hard to find money for exploration.

As to the seas they are heavily exploited as it is. Alot of zones are overfished and some economies are so dependent on fishing they cannot survive as the catches diminish.

Also isn't it rather cowardly to give up the moment something goes wrong? Most Mars probes don't get to Mars, at least the British ones don't crash because of metric to imperial conversion errors. Going on in the face of adversity is what makes a champion. Is this the New Britain? Lets give up now and let someone else do it?

Why not exhange the CAP for an EU space program...

Here here.

What a sad state of affairs when a colonial has to teach the motherland how to behave.

[The_Doctor]

Why not exhange the CAP for an EU space program...

Or maybe a UN space program. It would be difficult to get all those countries to work together, be the results would worth it.

[zelda12]

Why not exhange the CAP for an EU space program...

There is one my Uncles, Dr Southwood quite high in structure I believe. They are the people who coughed up most of the funding for the Beagle project.

Article from early 2002 explaining the ESA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/sci/tech/2018619.stm

[Viking]

We have vast areas of the oceans unexplored, it is an ongoing source of power. Why not understand this more than wasting resources on flying to the stars.

It`s not wasting resources. Think what we might find out there; aliens for example (seriously, they might exist).

Also there`s alot of undiscovered resources on asteroids (as pointed out above) and think of all the money there`s to earn thanks to tourism.

Space is the future!

[bmolsson]

Think what we might find out there; aliens for example (seriously, they might exist).

That is the problem. The American politicians see a Mexican illegal in every asteroid.........

[zelda12]

There's also self preservation involved. Humanity is already on the knife edge of the evolutionary chopping block. From what I can tell we have 3 definite problems that will occur sooner or later.

1) The Polar Ice Caps melting-this is very bad and its already started happening. What’s even scarier is that once the North Pole starts melting it will unlock a LOT of frozen methane, something like a trillion tonnes of the stuff or something similarly insane. Once that melts we are seriously screwed.

2) An Ice age, we are already in one just at one of its low points, it could snap back at any moment and given are reckless approach to the environment its getting more and more likely.

3) Yellowstone Park...not a nice thing, really, really bad thing in fact. Nuclear winter bad.

Now these things here wouldn't kill all of us, but casualty rates for any of them would rise into the billions, possibly as much as 75% of the human population would die as farmlands either become ocean, ice sheet or the huge dust clouds from the Volcano block out the sun and make growing things virtually impossible, we would all quite literally starve to death. And then we would likely regress a hundred years or so, possibly more.

Then there’s the big killer, Space. Space is not very nice, its frankly evil. Asteroids can wipe out almost all life in an instant and chance are we wouldn't even see it coming.

The only way the Human species is going to survive for certain is to spread our seed across the entire Galaxy. It may take time but we need to start now, we need to be pouring money into space travel. Not wasting it on Guns.

[The_Doctor]

The only way the Human species is going to survive for certain is to spread our seed across the entire Galaxy. It may take time but we need to start now, we need to be pouring money into space travel. Not wasting it on Guns.

I agree with you 100%.

Think what we might find out there; aliens for example (seriously, they might exist).

They do exist, I cannot imagine a universe where Earth is the only planet with life. There billions of stars and planets in is galaxy, and there is millions of other galaxies with billions of stars and planets. For not to be any other life is mad.

[The_Doctor]

There is a lot of stars in the universe:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...rs/970115.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/

70 sextillion= 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Viking]

They do exist, I cannot imagine a universe where Earth is the only planet with life. There billions of stars and planets in is galaxy, and there is millions of other galaxies with billions of stars and planets. For not to be any other life is mad.

They don`t have to, but there`s a huge chance that there does. What`s weird though, is that the SETI Experiment hasn`t found anything yet.

[The_Doctor]

They don`t have to, but there`s a huge chance that there does. What`s weird though, is that the SETI Experiment hasn`t found anything yet.

70 sextillion stars.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

someone said something about colonising space instead of wasting money on guns: one thing to come out of war is technological advances. Look at who was behind the first space rockets...

As for the barrage thing: when I was little my school had a trip to London for a few days in 1992, we went to the House of Commons where they were debating some barrage or other. I don't know what the specifics were of the Conservatives torpedoing the idea in the 80s but in the 90s it was definitely being discussed (heh, I was quite literally there).

Like ShadesWolf said: why doesn't the government pass laws for solar panels on houses. Also, instead of blaming the Conservatives for things why don't Labour get their act together and build the bloody barrages instead of wasting money on windfarms.

[Viking]

70 sextillion stars.

But not planets, and aliens live on planets.

[zelda12]

Most stars have at least one planetoid, depends on how big the sun is. But 70 sextillion stars even if only 1 in every trillion has a habitable planet leaves us with a hell of a lot of planets where life could develop.

[Viking]

I know where you`re going, but the chance for that an intelligent liveform has evolved on another planet is small.

First you got the number of planets, then the number of rocky planets, then the number of habitable planets, then the number of habitable planets where life evolved, then the number of habitable planets where complicated liveforms evolved and finally the number of habitable planets where intelligent life evolved.

And so far none rocky planet has been found circling another star, though they undoubtly exist.

[zelda12]

We won't know until we go and find out!

By the way haven't they found rocky planets? I remember seeing something on TV about them identifying an Earthlike planet?

[Viking]

Those planets could be rocky, or gaseous.

So far the technology is not good enough for finding habitable planets, so my ideology is to throw more money into space....er, throw more money into space exploration