Lame cav tactic being employed

[Wishazu]

ive noticed something thats very worrying this last week. More and more players online seem to be employing this lame cav spam rush army. whenever i host a game i allways set the denari limit to 10k per player, so in a 2v2 thats 20k per team. in a few games ive played 1 enemy player has picked an army consisting purely of cav, now this wouldnt really bother me if they were playing as Scythia, parthia or armenia, proper cav civs, but people are doing it with any civ. often they group the whole army into 1 mass wedge by deploying their units on top of each other. they then simply charge. ive seen how this lame tactic can destroy an army, however me and a clanmate spent a few hours online practicing to defeat it and im happy to say weve never been beaten by a player using this tactic. Im just worried that this seems to be the trend at the moment, will rome total war just become mass rushing? has anyone else encountered this?

[Swoosh So]

Older totalwar games gave unit penalties for being stcked on top of each other rome actually encourages it, its also possible to merge your phalanx into 1 solid wall no gaps whatsoever... btw beware certain clans that say 5max then take the factions where its still possible to get cav spam aries even with 5max lmao, and they say before game 5 max to avoid cav spam ;)

[Swoosh So]

amp said to me ages ago in sp campaigns he was just cav spamming the ai and winning no problem spam 1 unit spam the next rinse repeat... how sad it is that this was allowed to happen, i think units in previous totalwar games got morale penalties for being all jumbled up or at least combat penalties.

[jerby]

a morale penalty shoudl be logical for being pushed at each other. like happened at cannae, almost no romans could lift up their sword to strike, people were dying straigth up: there's was no room to fall to the ground!

[Beefy]

yeh it can be annoying, i gave it a go though and it does work. there needs to be something stopping it especially with cav, infantry isnt such a problem.

You need to tell me that Tactic Wish! put it on the Tn forums, Ta

[Dutch_guy]

god I hate that tactic, especially if it consist of cataphracts, I really hate that
it's so disapointing when you try to built a BALANCED army, and then get f***** by an all cavalry army...

[Orda Khan]

You could always just pull the plug on the battle, maybe they will get the message

.....Orda

[Lord Preston]

yup, i just leave or kick/end the game...

i have a no all cav armies rule in my games

if i wanted to see loads of horses i'd go to a horse race... not a battle field.

[Shambles]

Now a good palyer would beat them in to the ground give em back there horse shoes and tell em, thats a dumb tactick Go think about Why it sux, and come back when you can command a real army.

But a poor looser who cant play would plug and whine about not being able to defeat a simple army of horses.

personaly i cant see cavalry running up hill in to a wall of spikes whilst big ass catapults rain rocks down on them and with arrows pinging in to there eye balls.

[Aelwyn]

Now a good palyer would beat them in to the ground give em back there horse shoes and tell em, thats a dumb tactick Go think about Why it sux, and come back when you can command a real army.

But a poor looser who cant play would plug and whine about not being able to defeat a simple army of horses.

personaly i cant see cavalry running up hill in to a wall of spikes whilst big ass catapults rain rocks down on them and with arrows pinging in to there eye balls.

Put this type of cav spam army in the hands of a good player, and I don't care what army you have, you are at a disadvantage. I have some friends that I'll admit play with armies such as this. They take a max of 5 usually, but end up taking about 15 cavs, all of which are combat-worthy. Then, line them up in about 4 ranks deep, 3 rows all tight together, and just demolish one part of the enemy after another, barely losing any cavs.

The reason this works so well imo is the new dynamic of RTW. If you rush cavs at cavs, and both units survive the initial charge, then they move back and forth against each other, in and out. They don't just stand there and fight like they would in MTW. So, if you mass cavs together, these 'gaps' that units would end up moving through...and thus surviving, are all closed up. So since the charge bonus on many cavs is so high, a solid block of cavs filling with no gaps for units to 'survive' in will completely wipe out units just on the charge. The 3-4 men that survive will run, and the cav block is on to its next target.

I hate that its basically come to that. But honestly I've done some things similar to avoid getting frustrated and quitting. What I'll do is just take maybe 6 heavy cavs, and move them all as one group, not necessarily on top of each other, but in a line. If I am playing at a high enough level, I can block this cav mass long enough with those 6 cavs to flank it and hopefully destroy some units before my 6 cavs rout.

Its pretty sad that it has to work that way though. And, if you don't have good allies, and you get doubled (or in my case a few times tripled) with 2 cav spam armies, you have no chance whatsoever. I pointed this out on the NET, in a thread, but I think it went unnoticed.

[Shambles]

I really beleve that you can defeat them qute easily with correct usage of your people,
And i understand how it can be frustrating,

But the only way you can get them to stop using this type of attack is to show them that its easily beaten and they shoud try using some skill instead,

I doubt a good player would Be happy to use such under handed tacktics,
but having said that, I doubt that its much difrent to the way the mongolians worked,

[AquaLurker]

Yep that is the trend now, some clan games rules about max five or four actually means max 4 of the units choice (eg. max 4 cataphracts, but still can take another 4 companions or other cav) not type, but there are some clan who are wise enough to state the maximum 'type' of units eg. cav, inf(rarely) or archers that you are allowed to bring into the game. But how should horse archers be catogorised?

Best way to play this game in a way where everyone can enjoy it is by stating the rules clearly and agree upon them first before you start the game.
So far, most of the clans I had played with are very clear on stating their game rules. Bad mannered players and sore losers (especially obnoxious cocky kids) are the ones that we need to worry about lol.

Personnally I like games without onagers because it is unrealistic and the damage effect on field battle is over powered. But that's me.

[1dread1lahll]

Lol

[Crandaeolon]

Yeah, those cav spam blobs are quite common these days. Not very difficult to defeat, even though they're better now than equivalent tactics in MTW, which suffered from the "sandwiched" penalty. Using the blobs takes very little skill for its relative effectiveness, but OTOH the spammer can't get much "better" at the spam tactic either, so the spammer's performance will hit a ceiling sooner rather than later.

And onagers... they're an uncertain gamble at best and an utter waste of denarii at worst if you're playing at sensible denarii levels (around 10k.)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Cavalry spam is easily defeated. Just put 3 phalanx unit next to each other and take the charge, or put two phalanx units behind each other. Then try to send in own cav and infs to enemy's flank. Besides, the more densely they pack their cavs, the more of them you get in each onager shot, if you've brought onagers (which I almost always do unless it's a no art server). I used to pack my cavs densely before, but often it's more effective to not do that, as you're more easily surrounded this way.

But I'm also disappointed that there's no penalty for packing units - this way they ALL get the charge bonus, instead of, more realistically, only giving charge bonus to the first unit.

[Orda Khan]

Regardless of whether it can be defeated and whether or not this is easy, I still say the best thing is to pull the game. At the end of the day why bother? Just say bye bye

........Orda

[Shambles]

becous it proves to them that YOU cant defeat that stategy and Have no honour and ran away with your tail between your legs,

may not be what happend,
But is what they think

[Orda Khan]

And I give a sh*t what they think?

.......Orda

[Shambles]

And I give a sh*t what they think?

.......Orda

Maby not but never the less it encourages them to beleve that this tacktic can easily make you run away,
Which is basically what you do when you plug.

do you think you should encourage them?

Just beat em a few times.
Show them that a lame tactic like that Cant beat you and they should go comand a real army.

[pariya]

as for cav being packed over top of one another....... thats easy to beat so who cares.... as for spamming one unit... thats easy to beat so who cares....

u NEED 5 max
-without it parthian armies are way overpowered..... especially in 4v4 games were 1 player can get parthia and get like 10 camels cats and archers and then have his allies cover parthia with there inf... then parthia will rape anythign that comes into contact with it..... u NEED 5 max rules

without it
selic is overpowered
armenia is overpowered
parthia is overpowered
greek is overpowered
scythia is overpowered
and a few others

and its not just about cav
5 max prevents sumone from getting greek in a 3v3 or 4v4 game and getting loads of spears and using that for there inf.... then there allies getting loads of cav... ive seen it done before.... and it is cheap

5 max prevents so many things...... true it doesnt stop every cheap noob army out there but it sure does stop alot of them

[pariya]

orda khan do u play rtw?

i dont even recognize/have seen 3/4 of any of u on rtw

[Wishazu]

i havnt been defeated by one of these cav spammers yet, ive pretty much sorted a tactic as greece for winning on 10k and i dont need to alter my standard ballanced army. 2 units of spartans(1 is the gen) keep em in standard formation behind the phalanx line, they can then rush to support any weak or faltering spots. 2 units of armoured hoplites, keep em both on one flank to anchor it. 5 units of reg hoplites, these are your main hoplite line, deploy them together with no gaps in between and make em at least 4 ranks deep. 2 onagers on fire at will flame pots behind ur main line. 3 cretans on fire arrows, keep em on the flanks, then pull em in behind your line when the enemy approaches and finally 3 units of greek cav to pursue the enemy cav once its broken, or to flank it once they hit your line, or to draw em off on a wild goose chase whilst your cretans pump volley after volley into em. :)

[pariya]

Hello pariya...


The Org. tries to discourage members from posting comments that will cause offense to other members.

Oh... your signature exceeds the maximum size also, remove, replace or reduce it to 10 Kb max, thanks.

Rob.

[ichi]

Regardless of whether it can be defeated and whether or not this is easy, I still say the best thing is to pull the game. At the end of the day why bother? Just say bye bye

........Orda

That's what I did. Regardless of what other's have said about quitting or just trying harder or whatever, the prob is the game engine and the solution isn't 5 max.

Or so says I.

ichi

Ps Hey lahll, good to see you mate

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

When everyone is overpowered, the game is balanced

RTW 1.2 is screwed up on so many levels that I don't think any simple rules like 5 max or anything can really make it playable for any kind of tournament.

Rob rightly edited ad hominem attacks and change in tournaments rules... Well *shrug*, if you don't like it, don't play it. It's already so far off, it's not even worth arguing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with buying a cavalry army and a greek spear army. That's part of having a game where factions are not clone of each other, and in my opinion, one of the enjoyable aspect of RTW.

I find low denarii, large size units setting to be enjoyable. Unfortunately not playable in 4v4 (given the large size) and probably not balanced either, but still fun

I wonder if large size units help against cavalry spamming. It is a little bit tougher to spam a 120 men strong pike units... Maybe that's why I don't mind that too much. I don't like seeing it, just like I did not like seeing swipe... It's just gamey, and player doing that usually forget how to play beside the spam.
Cheetah, yes it's possible to spam, even on low denarii, using cheap cavalry, but with both low denarii and large size, I have not seen that being usefull if at all: the blob got (relative) low defense/ low morale, and is a fast router when flanked, even by a single unit.
Chances are elite heavy cavalry spam is more of an issue that barbarian calvary spam or greek cavalry spam, or equites cavalry spam...

Louis,

[sheelba]

hi to all.

Can anyone suggest a method for beating an army of 10 desert cavalry and 10 h chariots with a mainly inf Roman army. With 6 triarii, 6 urbans and 3 1st leg, supported by 2 archers, 2 pr cav and a general I would have thought the battle would have lasted longer than the enemy charges plus 8 seconds.

Tips anyone? I don't want to end up running about with 15 hc myself. Or be forced to play powers with phalanx troops as the alternative. (I do like playing with phalanx troops, but do I have too?)

[Crandaeolon]

That's a rather cheesy Egyptian army. Sometimes you must fight cheese with cheese... that army is exactly 12k, so I'm assuming that's your chosen denarii level. I'm also assuming that you're playing on a flat grass map.

A Roman army of 12 urbans and 8 archers should be an ok defensive counter. Set Urbies in deep blocks with Fire at Will on, and archers to the front of the line (or box) of Urbies. Wait for the enemy to charge and hope for the best. Let the archers skirmish away or get killed, don't bother with them too much.

The best offensive counter-army against 10 desert cav and 10 egyptian chariots would probably be a British all-chariot army (a mix of lights and heavies.) Yes, it's very sad and cheesy. Maybe some rules would make it more interesting?

[Tomisama]

It has been years now since the Total War multiplayer community had an Honor Society, maybe it’s time again?

Establishing a simple code of ethics for the community, could help to some degree to make folks aware that there are some of us who expect more from the people we play with than a “spam dunk”!

In the past, the Honor Society was an exclusive club, where you had to be nominated and voted in (I never was). That is “not” what I am talking about. My vision is a very simple Code of Honor that can be signed by those who would uphold it.

It could even be taken a step further, if those electing to accept "The Code" as there own, could also signify that fact by adding a special character or letter to the end of their player name. That way Code advocates could more easily find each other online to have the quality of games that they are looking for.

The identifying “mark” (whatever it would be), would also identify those who either were not aware that there was a Code so that they could be told about it, and those who refused to adopt it.

I am thinking that it would be better to exclude the later from your games, than to have to pull the game, and waste any of the precious time it would take to do so.

Thoughts

Edit: Made this it's own thread called Code of Honor

[AquaLurker]

This is how I actually deal with spam arimes;

If I am playing rome, I will make sure that my inf are close together in tight formation while my cav is always near it, most of the time the spamer will find his cav blog stuck after routing 0-1 unit of inf, thats where my cav goes in for the finishing. I don't have to worry about the speed or inf turning because they are romans and no cav can change direction fast enough against roman inf.

If I am playing greek, the answer is simple from a deep cirle of pike and be alert and paitence. Once the cav spammer decides to attack a point turn your pikes to that direction, if he decides to with draw, good form the circle again. Every time he charge and withdraw he loss more men than I do and you can simply do the math who is taking more losses.
I usually use 2 militia cav while playing greeks so if the guy decides to chase my cav, good that will tire him out. Is a matter of paitence and keeping cool.

Same goes for mace only this time you combine greek tactics with roman, form a pike circle and run your cav around or through it to avoid the spammer.
But never charge throught your own pike cause they will kill your own cav as well. Just turn them around for to the rear or flanks of the cav blog and charge it when it go stuck in the pike circle.

If you are playing barbs...well good luck, cos barbs are the worst inf to take on cav blogs anyway.

Archers in the above mention tactics will have to constantly move about and take pot shots at the cav to lure it to charge your inf formation. Keep close to the inf and never stray too far from it.

This is how I use my balance armies against cav spammers, the chance of victory is above average. In the end, it is a matter of patience and keeping cool. Do not let those spammers taunt you. And remember it is just a game.

I have spammers quiting the game after a series of failed charges, sustaining heavy causlties, sometimes the rude ones even call me a cheat lol and abuse me verbally, I merely laugh at them.

[Crandaeolon]

if the player was decent enough, couldn't he just take his blob and move to your main forces flanks, then turn quickly, and attack them before they could line back up after turning?

In this case, the relatively fast running speed of infantry is a strength; it's not that difficult to keep facing the cav blob with a shortish line (or double line) of deep inf blocks. Phalanxes will maneuver out of phalanx formation of course, only lowering their spears when the charge is apparent. You can even charge the cav blob head-on with phalanx secondary attack and switch to phalanx once they're already in melee.

As long as you have a solid mass of infantry stopping the blob, the finesse bits don't matter that much. Most phalanxes are dependable infantry even with their secondary attacks, and like AquaLurker said, Romans and other sword inf are more than fast enough to keep pace.