Physical map problem

[hoom]

So much Africa + Arab peninsula + Eastern "russia"

It has seemed to me for some time that there is too much south west Africa & north east Russia in the EB/MM map.
I understand the difficulties of projection & Teleklos' projection comparison is pretty interesting :)

The solution that I would like to suggest is where the map is on an angle relative to the latitude/longitude grid.
This lets those pesky big blank bits be largely removed while still allowing the map to cover the important bits.
Overlaid on Teleklos' image it would look kinda like this: (except not messy & poorly done)

Of course there would be substantial (probably fatal ) difficulties in doing that & I can offer no help other than the idea

[Salazar]

@Caesar: Don't let Steppe Merc hear this, there were tribal confederations all over the Steppe, and the Saharah wasn't unpopulated. Arabian Peninsula had some really wealthy trading Cities.
And in Africa, if i remember correctly there were even some awefully rich
!kingdoms! (not tiny tribes) on the Southern Edge of Sahara, had something to do with Gold and Salt i think. Though i'm not sure if these were established later.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I love talking about maps, seriously, it's terrific! But one big thing here (that as much as we all might like to not think about, still is the 500lb gorilla sitting in this thread with us): there is no way the basic nature of the map itself is going to be changed. It's just too much work and we have had a lot of people working to make this map as perfect as we possibly can, but there has not been one voice inside EB raising the proposition that we totally move or "nudge" landmasses or provinces to represent another type of projection. Again, I really like the discussion, and I'll be more than happy to continue participating also, but have any of the folks here talking about the changes actually attempted such a change on an already-made RTW map? With characters' positions set, roads working like they should, ports and cities placed, units and rebels distributed like we like, mountains and terrain where we can best place them, snow lines set by satellite maps, vegetation in place, and all the other little things like that set?

[hoom]

Yeh, those were the fatal issues I was thinking of...

[caesar44]

@Caesar: Don't let Steppe Merc hear this, there were tribal confederations all over the Steppe, and the Saharah wasn't unpopulated. Arabian Peninsula had some really wealthy trading Cities.
And in Africa, if i remember correctly there were even some awefully rich
!kingdoms! (not tiny tribes) on the Southern Edge of Sahara, had something to do with Gold and Salt i think. Though i'm not sure if these were established later.

Just look at maps for 280 or 270 bce - no political entities in Africa South of Numidia , no political entities in the Arab peninsula (OK , several cities 1,000 km from each other...) and East off Dacia (OK , some tribes that moved from here to there , Steppe - ni offence )
The point is that the Greeks had tiny City states that had more influence than any gigantic tribal "empire" like the Sarmatians or the Scitians . now , in a big map you will see a mighty Sarmatian "empire" that controls 5 cities and a tiny Hellenic union that control 15 cities...

[Greek_fire19]

Well actually, during the time period of the game, Northern Arabia was dominated by the Nabataeans, who's capital was the magnificant city of Petra.

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/bms/intl/i...onal/petra.jpg

You really ought to recognise it. It was a flourishing centre for trade from the 6th century BC until 106 AD, i.e the game's time period. The Nabataeans were an arabic people.
The Nomadic Bedouin were another arab people and their only real purpose in EB would be as mercenaries because they were herdsmen who lived in small groups, mostly in the centre and east of arabia.

However, the south and west of arabia, which is comparatively lush, was controlled by the Sabeans, who are entirely distinct from the Arabic peoples in the north, and formed wealthy city states.

The Only direct historical evidence I can find of the various cultures of southern arabia comes from the greek historian Strabo: (born 62BC)

"the land is inhabited by four great peoples: first the Mineans, with their capital Karna. The Sabeans with capital Mariba. They are followed third By the Qattabanians, whose capital seat is Tamna. Towards the west the Hadhramis have settled in the town of Sabota".

These were not 'tribes' but city states with secular kings and codified laws.

These cities were situated on the main sea-borne trading routes between india and persia and egypt, and as such they were wealthy and powerful, and were not conquored until the 6th century AD, when they fell under persian and later islamic control.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The Only direct historical evidence I can find of the various cultures of southern arabia comes from the greek historian Strabo: (born 62BC)

"the land is inhabited by four great peoples: first the Mineans, with their capital Karna. The Sabeans with capital Mariba. They are followed third By the Qattabanians, whose capital seat is Tamna. Towards the west the Hadhramis have settled in the town of Sabota".

These were not 'tribes' but city states with secular kings and codified laws.

These cities were situated on the main sea-borne trading routes between india and persia and egypt, and as such they were wealthy and powerful, and were not conquored until the 6th century AD, when they fell under persian and later islamic control.

We wanted to show Karna, Mariba, Tamna, and Sabata, but when you look at a map, they are entirely too close to each other to merit full provinces with those as the capitals. So we basically still have the three areas, but then instead of Tamane/Tamna, we are using the important coastal city of Aden/Adane as the seat of the Qattabanians. It was a tough call, but otherwise we would have four capitals in the area of a small province anywhere else -- all the more striking given that there would be no other capitals anywhere near them in such a big and vast area as Arabia. So we are very close to Strabo, but have had to change one thing (though the Qattabanians themselves are still represented, just with another important city instead of the place Strabo calls their capital).

[caesar44]

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon....-700large.html

There you can see all the kingdoms in Arabia

[Greek_fire19]

lol, very good.

I actualy did a little more research on the Kingdoms of Southern Arabia because I think they're pretty interesting and exotic and the kind of history i'm into.

http://www.livius.org/a/1/maps/arabia_map.gif

Theres a map of most of the major cities in the most populated region, though as telekos said, theyre pretty close together so they'd need to be spread out a bit.

These were wealthy trading kingdoms. They sent ships to trade with India, Persia, Egypt, Eritrea, Zanzibar and Madagascar. The region was famed for it's incense, especially Frankinsense, which was used in religious rituals across the civilised world and which they had a virtual monopoly of.

The main Kindom in Arabia between about the 8th Century Bc and the 3rd Century B.C was Saba. Saba controlled the main land routes from arabia felix, along which spices, incense and cinnamon was carried to mesopotamia.
The road (known as the gold and incense road) was kept in good order and even partly paved with flat rocks. There were road stations situated at intervals along the road. The leader of each station would receive taxes up to one tenth of the transported goods. Security along those roads was guaranteed; but it was forbidden and considered a severe offense, if a road station was simply bypassed without entering.

They used this wealth to cultivate a highly advanced agricultural system, which used huge dams and irrigation systems to control the water, which was so precious because droughts were common and when it came it usually flooded the region, until the dams were built.

In the second century B.C a new kingdom, the himyarites, emerged. They were beaten in battle several times by the Sabeans, because the Sabeans had a much larger army, and the sabeans quickly conquored all the Himyarite's inland provinces, however the Himyarite control of the sea was crucial, because with it they controlled the massive trade routes round the peninsula. Their wealth allowed them to hire mercenaries prevent their destruction. However the Sabeans seemed to have the upper hand until the 1st century AD, when the Greek Hippalus is credited with the discovery of the changing monsoon winds, blowing the sailing boats to India and back. The great monopoly of the Sabeans for trade with India and Africa was broken. Now Roman ships could leave Egypt in early June for the port of Aden. The south-west monsoon would then carry them to India in September. After doing trade and business for two months, the ships could be back in Alexandria by February.

The Sabeans had known of this for centuries, but now that the Romans knew it too, the use of the Gold and Incense road rapidly declined and without their main source of wealth Sabean power declined. The Himyarites controlled most of the Sea ports and were more able to capitalise on the change. By the 5th century A.D the himyarites controlled almost all of Yemen. (Shortly after, the Islamic armies conquored the area and it became part of the Caliphate)

Anyway, having read this, I hope that the regions in Southern Arabia are shown in EB as rich and fertile with plentiful trading goods such as Incense, and that their armies are strong and well equipped.