Interesting phalanx weakness

[Monk]

Ok, i have no idea if this has been posted before so i apologise if it has. But i have just came across an interesting phalanx weakness that i will surely be taking into account from now on in my battles...

I was playing a campaign as Macedon, the year was 273 bc so it wasn't that long into the game. I'm at war with the Greek cities and they are putting up a decent fight but slowly my armies are gaining the upper hand. I was gearing up for the attack on sparta when i noticed a single unit of peasant brigands near my newest conquest (athens) so i thought "hey, easy kill" and dispatched a single phalanx pikemen unit.

Ok, so battle is joined and i click deploy, but to my surprise the AI doesn't fight at first, it pulls its peasants back. I follow their retreat eager for a kill when the peasants run up a steep hil and then turn and stand at the ready. Now this hill is quite steep, but i am still confident so i form my men at the bottom and begin marching up. naturally they are getting a bit tired but i know these farmers will be no match for a row of pikes.

I get within shouting distance when all of a sudden the Ai charges. This was no surprise but this is where I noticed something the AI knew but I didn't. Since i was at an angle (facing uphill) my pikemen's spears were off the ground more than usual, and when the Peasants charged they were able to get under the pikes and attack the front rank of my phalanx easily!

I was completely shocked, the AI withdrew and charged again, getting under the pikes again and killing 5 men. Realising i the phalanx's weakness i took them out of the formation and attacked with swords, the AI was defeated but not before 27 of my pikemen were killed.

I had no idea that the Phalanx had such a weakness. I will always take this into account when in battle from now on. this was in a game of rtr btw...

[scorillo]

so?..like u said..! RTR !....do you think in a realistic battle 27 of 120 pikemn are serious casualties in a battle with 80 or 120 peasants ? ...i think is fairly decent,in a realistic battle i think more then 27 pikemen were killed

[amazon77]

Hmmm, that's very interesting. So your pikemen didn't hold their pikes parallel to the ground, but in a bigger angle. However, it would seem more naturall that they hold them in a lesser angle, so the peasents could walk on them rather than walking under them. However i see no reason why they would do either of these irl (well ok, games aint real life ).

I know the next to athens mountain and truly it's an awesome one. Could it be that your guys were just levies and were exhausted by marching up that huge hill? Since you say you're at the beggining of your campaign. Another thing that crosses my mind is u didn't perhaps click on phalnx formation fast enough so they were only lowering their spears when the AI charged.

[Productivity]

I'm pretty sure it's documented, I think I've read something about it before.

[Uriel]

This is a fairly well known issue. I've seen it mentioned over at the .com forums a few times. Basically phalanxes just don't work on a gradient, either up or down hill.

[amazon77]

so?..like u said..! RTR !....do you think in a realistic battle 27 of 120 pikemn are serious casualties in a battle with 80 or 120 peasants ? ...i think is fairly decent,in a realistic battle i think more then 27 pikemen were killed

I think he was commenting more on the angle of the spears rather than the casualties. Btw, no i really don't think 27 out of 120 would be killed (that's 22.5% casualties!), as peasents have knifes, whereas pikemen have a short shord, a small shield and some armor. IRL, i would expect single digit casualties.

[Monk]

Another thing that crosses my mind is u didn't perhaps click on phalnx formation fast enough so they were only lowering their spears when the AI charged.

No, i had them in phalanx formation the entire time they were marching up the hill. It was strange because as i paused and zoomed in i actually saw the peasants under the pikes themselves. From what i could tell my soldiers, as they marched up the hill, held their pikes at a slightly higher angle than normal.

I think he was commenting more on the angle of the spears rather than the casualties.

yes i was.

[amazon77]

Well, then the only think i can think of is:

Did they charged you when your guys were "almost" at the top? You know, where the gradient (slope) starts to change, so it eventually flats out when u reach the top. If they did it then, it's only naturall the spears were looking at the sky.

Can't really think of anything else

[NimbleNota]

I too have also encountered this problem, but rather during online play for RTW I was charging downhill with urbans into a pike wall and it seemed the wall broke easier then usual. I ever really thought anything of it until now but it seems that this could be another glitch to the game.

[Azi Tohak]

Interesting the designers include that little 'feature' or 'bug' or whatever...I wonder if it was intentional...

Azi

[Oaty]

This is a fairly well known issue. I've seen it mentioned over at the .com forums a few times. Basically phalanxes just don't work on a gradient, either up or down hill.

Theres a bit of historical accuracy in that, phalanxes usually did perform poorly on gradients or were more prone to breaking down. Don't you also love how phalanxes can perforn exceptionally well in the woods.

[vale]

well have you guys ever try to surround the phalanx and then kill them off? I think a group of peasant if got the necessary level of xp and weapon they might be able to kill off a units of phalanx by surrounding it.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Interesting the designers include that little 'feature' or 'bug' or whatever...I wonder if it was intentional...

Azi

I've posted about this on .com, .org and TWC. It wasn't intentional. I've PMed with MikeB about it and he called it 'emergent behaviour'. Personally I think that's a bit of a weak excuse as this also happens on shallower gradients. And attackers don't really go under/over the visible pears, they go straight through them. They only miss the trigger for casualties. And that looks really weird.

Also I wouldn't expect Phalanxes to perform quite as bad as this on an incline, let alone complete failure to deploy spears. Broken, rocky ground, woods, yes, you would think the phalanx would be massively penalized but this issue is just odd.

[Kraxis]

I have known about this for months. Even a rather shallow gradient will generate this problem, which seems odd.

When using phalanxes, stay away from hills at all costs.

[Red Harvest]

Yes, this has been known for some time. It's goes back at least 3 months, because it was an issue back when I still played RTW. OK, it really wasn't playing anymore...it was trying to fix problems with the game, so it was more testing than playing.