@%!*#!! Vikings!!!

[The Electric Celt]

Greetings all ,first post so go easy on me.Having relished my first game(English/early/hard/dom)after moving on from a 4 month stint on shogun,thought I'd go back to me roots and play Irish on VI(HARD)Having conquered 'the ol'country',sparing Ulster for the Scots,had an abortive crack at rebel Wales then opened a can of wup-ass on the Saxons via Cornwall.All good...however whilst enjoying my burgeoning gaelic empire the viking king sailed through my fledgling navy landed in Conaught with a magnificent 7 of approx.30 hard as nails huscalars,landsmen berserkers,all only 5-10 units strong but valour under an 8 star king of between 5 and 9.
They're now merrily bouncing from irish province to province eating my vanilla kerns, gallowglasses and royal knights whilst my king despairs over his mead in Dorset,any top tips before the national diet becomes smoked herring?

[CountMRVHS]

First, welcome to the forums!

Second, congratulations on having a VI game where the Vikings come out swinging -- you should consider yourself fortunate, as sometimes they simply wither away in Scandinavia, content to tend their crops and go ever deeper in debt. Which usually makes for an easier game, but not nearly as fun.

Third, you're screwed.

Well, ok, that's not entirely true. In fact, since you're the Irish, you may actually have the best hope of any other VI faction. But from here on in, it will probably be very difficult sailing for you. Let's look at the Bad Things:

-Viking navies trump all other navies
-Viking heirs are typically awesome, with crazy command and a unit that can eat your heaviest unit for breakfast
-Because of their special ability, the Vikings can move from province to province at will, even without a port, as long as they have boats in a nearby region; all the while raiding the countryside for cash without even taking your fort.
-The fact that they're moving from province to province like this will probably start to affect your Influence rating soon, which in turn affects the loyalty of all your generals, which ....

well let's look at the Good Things:

-They've apparently invaded with a typically small force. That means, even if they take the fort and conquer your province outright, the populace will be very unhappy with the tiny army of pagans, and you may likely get a loyalist rebellion in your favor.
-You're in command of some very rich land (or at least part of it), so financially you should be well-off. That means you should be able to quickly build Inns all over the place (if you haven't already) and hire a bunch of mercenaries.
-As the Irish, you have the ability to train some units that are perfect for killing armored Vikings: Gallowglasses are great shock troops, perfect for a flank attack while you use some Armored Spearmen to hold the enemy in place; your Bonnachts and Kerns (I think) are both armor-piercing, which again will be most useful when you can hold the enemy down with your spears.
-If you can survive this invasion, it's likely that the Vikings will run out of steam and try another poor faction, or just retire back to Scandinavia altogether.

So, in addition to the above, my tips are as follows:

Keep fighting! You'll lose the first several battles, but eventually there will be a point where you will wear them down. Also note that the Vikings are typically cav-poor; if you can recruit some merc Mounted Nobles, you can use them to draw away the slower heavy infantry and then pounce on them when they give up the chase and try to return to the rest of the battle. Just remember to disengage when the elite types start to melee with your cav; cav always loses in VI. Run away and wait for another opportunity.

Strategically, you should always try to fight them on the battle map, but make sure you'll have some men left to retreat into the fort if/when you lose. The other thing to consider is that the Vikings are going to move around, like you said, from province to province -- so obviously, don't empty one province to save another, because the Vikings might end up going for your now-empty province and taking it without a fight.

If you can afford it, keep building up your navy where there are no viking ships; but this will probably be rather futile.

Anyway, good luck! Let us know how everything turns out

CountMRVHS

[The Electric Celt]

Cheers fellow that's some wonderfully structured advice!Yes I'm currently gaining loyalist rebellions and have some decent' dogs of war'from my inns in Saxonland awaiting the chance to cross the Irish sea.Wearing down has so far been as painful as haemorroids but I'll keep plugging on.Work finishes in an hour then It's a four pack and an afternoons battling before the missus spoils my fun.(Strangly we are hosting a tour of the factory by a bunch of swedes,might give'um a slap in case everything goes really pear shaped ) Thanks again,I'll let you know

[antisocialmunky]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Kerns javelin throwers in VI? I've never played with the Irish so I'm just thinking about generic units more or less.

Vikings seem to have trouble with armored spearman, they can pin a unit of vikings pretty well for a little while. Now, you can slam some gallowglasses into the back of them or run some kerns around and javelin them. The key is to not confront them head on. The only unit that can really take out vikings head on is the Saxon Huscarle and even then it's not a good idea to take them head on.

One of the best ways to whittle an enemy down is with archers, defend, retreat etc. Attack, retreat. :)

[ichi]

The problem is the high valor of the Viking units, which is compounded by the Command rating of the King.

Since the Irish have no archers try using Kerns and Bonnachts and Dartmen behind spear troops; let the spears hold a position while the javelin troops hit them from all sides if possible.

For the King, look for some mercs. Try Pictish Mounted Xbows or Welsh Bandits (good luck finding them), or just get a vanilla archer and work on putting a bolt through his eye.

ichi

[Patron]

build a navy

[antisocialmunky]

Well... crap... no archers. Uh...

Well, Javelin them to death is the only real solution besides merc. You could try and get a bridge battle but I haven't run into that in the VI campaign. You could always hope they split their forces and take out the one without the king. Sorry mate.

[Satyr]

Really, it just isn't that desperate if you follow the Count's advice. Let the vikings engage your armored spears (I use attack at will but hold position to get the best bang for the buck) and then flank like crazy with gallowglasses and cav. When setting up for battle, position your kerns way up front so they can skirmish all the way back to your spears (which are on a hill right?) and then hide behind them so they can continue firing at the enemy king.

[CountMRVHS]

Interesting advice, Satyr; I have never experimented with the positions of my armored spearmen. Doesn't engage at will mean they no longer fight in ranks to get the bonus? I don't think I've ever tried it at any rate. I also very rarely use hold position -- in fact, I don't think I've *ever* used it, to be honest. Does it make a difference? I just leave 'em on default, but I'll be messing around with it now...

[antisocialmunky]

Hold position is almost needed for alot of different units, especially in your main battle line.

If it is off, then if you unit gets attacked in any direction except for head on, it'll turn to optimally counter that. The problem with that is that it only works 1 on 1. Otherwise, it rotates until your flank is there for everyone to see. This is especially bad especially for spearman who, obviously, can only defend form head on.

It also helps archers in front of your lines from rotating and messing up your whole battle line.

Put it on defensive units so they don't turn or reorient themselves in a bad way.

[Patron]

You should use Satyr's Irish flanking plan to defend and attack, lure them out with your armoured spearmen, never mind if they die, it seems you have to make the sacrifice. Attack the sides with your gallow glasses and go right around to the back with your cavalry. You won't have much time though, so only use bonnacht javelin men in large battles. It might be worth sneindg your javelin men forward in place of your spearmen as they will run away and either kill 50 or so men of a certain unit if they don't chase or be occupied chasing your javelins, you can then crash into their loosenned formation with your gallow glasses or even better charge into them with some jedi prince's retinue of body guards.

Also build a navy. You need ot build a navy and attack those viking on the sea!!! Concentrate on protecting Ireland first and fight a guerilla war on Britain. Then start churning out gallow glasses, bonnachts, armoured spearmen and royal bodyguards. Give armour and attack bonuses to gallows and bonnachts. Your royal bodyguards are just for charging.

Tell us how it works out.

[Satyr]

The hold formation button is great if you need your troops to take a charge, but once that charge has been absorbed, there is an attack penalty and you need all the attack points you can get so you need to turn on attack at will. On the other hand, you don't want your spears to spread out or chase so you put on hold position and you get to keep the rank bonus for quite a while. Try it against cav too, it works surprisingly well. Leave hold formation on until you take the charge and then turn attack at will on and watch and you will see that your spears start winning instead of losing. If you are charging with your spears, always put them on attack at will and turn off hold position. That puts them as close to acting like swords as it is possible to get. Unless I am facing the Horde or some other huge cav army, I never sit and take a charge with my spears. I wait for the attackers to get close and then my whole army is sent charging into theirs. You can't discount the charge bonus, and I get to arrange the matchups I want, not the ones the AI wants.

[Tigranes]

I just started a VH Irish campaign. I haven't battled the Vikings more than once, because I managed to give my princess to their king. Now, we have continued this, almost in ritual, with each new Viking king getting one of my princesses. Doesn't make me popular with the others, but so what, I need it! I've taken all of Ireland, Orcades, and four or five mainland holdings in the far north. A couple factions are gone, but the Picts just reappeared (damn them!). I just got a prince named Cormac, who is a complete genius. The only thing I contributed to his excellence was a +1 dread virtue, and he already has four stars, nine quills and five dread. However, he had no loyalty at all to his father (his father was a buffoon), and when the civil war inevitably erupted, I chose him over the king. His influence was immediately six! I like my Cormac...

[barocca]

For even tougher Vikings ie. ones that actually expand and attack quickly, providing much more of a challenge (especially on v.hard)

get the Beefy Vikings Campaign and I would suggest you consider early emigration to the new world..oh, i forgot, the Vikings are ALREADY THERE!!!

good luck

B.

[Satyr]

Barroca, I installed the Beefy Viking mod but you really should give them a lot more starting dollars. They still can't build enough troops to really take much territory and at some point they need to start holding some of it and they definately can't afford to do that and raid at the same time. I think if you give them about 5 times their starting gold they might really become a force to reckon with. What say you?

[Total War Merc]

If you start of as the vikings you start off losing 500

you need to dispand all your army, then get you economy sorted out

once you have done that start building your army again (afterall the other factions never come across the sea)

[asilv]

If you start of as the vikings you start off losing 500

you need to dispand all your army, then get you economy sorted out

once you have done that start building your army again (afterall the other factions never come across the sea)

No. Building your economy with vikings is hopeless. Raiding is only reasonable way to make money with them.

[Satyr]

You guys are missing the point! Vikings are the easiest faction to play in all of Medieval. If you want to know how to blitzkrieg with the Vikings, just ask but...

What we were trying to accomplish was to make the Vikings play tough WHEN the AI is running things. In VI the vikings are almost never a threat after the first 10-20 years. They go so far into debt so fast that the AI can't raid well enough to keep up. Barroca posted a somewhat tougher version, but I think they are still too puny and we need to make a SUPER DUTY EXTRA BEEFY VIKINGS mod.

[asilv]

You guys are missing the point! Vikings are the easiest faction to play in all of Medieval. If you want to know how to blitzkrieg with the Vikings, just ask but...

What we were trying to accomplish was to make the Vikings play tough WHEN the AI is running things. In VI the vikings are almost never a threat after the first 10-20 years. They go so far into debt so fast that the AI can't raid well enough to keep up. Barroca posted a somewhat tougher version, but I think they are still too puny and we need to make a SUPER DUTY EXTRA BEEFY VIKINGS mod.

Yes I know that. I have no problems with playing the vikings. I was just telling Total War Merc that the way he mentioned is the slowest and most boring way to play vikings.

[Tigranes]

It's not impossible to build a reasonable economy with the vikings. Just raid a bit, and then take a province. Hold it, and continue raiding. Usually I start with Ireland. Easy enough to take, and still pretty isolated, so you needn't worry about very large garrisons. If you take the province Scotland owns in Ireland, you don't even have to worry about retaliation from anyone (though, likely, the Irish will still attack). Just keep raiding England, and take Ireland slowly. After that, you have a decent enough economy to build a stronger one, and so on, while continuing your raids.

[Satyr]

Ahhh, sorry. Your advice is spot on then. I actually concentrate on getting troops production buildings on Manua and the Orcades so that I can pump the maximum number of Huscarles asap.

[CountMRVHS]

I experimented with beefing up the Vikings awhile ago. I don't know how much of a difference it made, though. Sometimes things would seem really savage, other times... not much.

What I did was gave them 12 Snekkjas to start - 6 in each sea region - and a trader in each of their 2 provinces. Then I gave them I think 10,000 florins to start.

It's been awhile since I've played on the Viking map, though.

What specific changes did the Barocca mod make? Just curious,

CountMRVHS

[The Electric Celt]

Alas gentlemen,re-tried 3 times(something i hate doing!)at best held my own for a couple of years then Prince Cnut turned up(i long to adjust that spelling,that really was his name)and with a civil war,no access to ireland for the kings army in dorset(despite 2 shipyards,those corracle thingys don't cut it versus longboats)and my loyalists rebellions being green and clueless,It was goodnight Vienna...no more Irish ditties,It's now dirges about trolls,caves and such nordic pastimes...Anyway I'm now Sicily/hard/late/G.A,AND AFTER 25 HRS gameplay(i used to have a life )I've decided to ditch the girlfriend and marry M.T.W...magnificent cheers folks speak to y'all soon

[barocca]

I experimented with beefing up the Vikings awhile ago. I don't know how much of a difference it made, though. Sometimes things would seem really savage, other times... not much.

What I did was gave them 12 Snekkjas to start - 6 in each sea region - and a trader in each of their 2 provinces. Then I gave them I think 10,000 florins to start.

It's been awhile since I've played on the Viking map, though.

What specific changes did the Barocca mod make? Just curious,

CountMRVHS

i recall you making posts about those changes, i think you were the inspiration for Beefy Viking Mod,

i upped the ante a little bit,

the viking provinces are a little more advanced monetary building wise,
allowing them to concentrate on troop producing buildings

i think i used your recommended number of ships and gave them the buildings to build more

cheers,
B.

[Satyr]

I have played around with starting florins for the vikings a few times. I think somewhere around 50,000 florins gave them enough income to build enough infrastucture to continue to compete. I haven't looked at what buildings you gave them but it would help if they were able to build huscarles in both provinces as well as ships in at least one to start. If they also had a high priority on producing cav it might encourage them to develop Manua or somewhere else to get them.

If only you could get them to build peasants for garrison duty without them using them for battle you could really help them along. At only 12 florins upkeep per 100 men peasants are all I use for garrison duty when I play as the Vikings.