Help Me With Dutch Law

[_Martyr_]

Justice for starters. What is achieved by letting a murderer back out into society?

Rehabilitaion is the aim of punishment over this side of the pond. What greater achievement is there than taking a brutal murdering man, and after years of incarceration, including extensive psychological treatment and a host of other methods, producing a remorseful yet newly upstanding, profoundly changed individual, who regrets what they have done to the core. That seems like justice to me and far more productive than simply throwing away the key. An eye for an eye if you will, the killer removes an upstanding citizen from society, so society removes a murderer, and produces an upstanding citizen... the scales of justice are balanced.

Now dont get me started, I am the first to point out naked idealism, and there is no doubt that some people will are not reachable. But the fact remains that nothing at all is achieved by life term incarceration as a sole method of punishment. It clearly doesnt work as a deterant, or the murder rates in the US would be amounst the lowest in the world, not on the upper end of the scale.

As a matter of interest, what would you sentence this man to if it were up to you?

[_Martyr_]

America is broken up into different states that are somewhat independent of eachother, but all are supposed to follow national law. Executing retarded people is not practiced in my state and is against federal law, so your attempt at relativity ("You cant criticise them because you execute retards!!") doesnt hold water. If i lived in a state where it was legal i would vote against it. On the other hand these lenient murder sentences are dutch national law.

For a start, thanks for explaining Federal Government to us all, I honestly had NO idea what it was!


Im not attempting relativity of any sorts. What I am doing is getting you to examine and acknowlegde the massive failings of your own country's legal system (that retarded individuals, who are not wealthy enough to afford a top shot lawyer are still executed, by the State, even after it has been made illegal by the Federal Government) while you point out what seems to me to be a relatively minor flaw,(and even that is very subjective - I would call it a disagreement in applied severity of sentence) in the Netherlands. And then proceed to call that country screwed up on that grounds??

[_Martyr_]

I think we already had one or two cases here, where murderers flew from mental homes, because they can go to the dentist or out for a walk with guards, and killed more people.

Then surely the answer is to increase security at mental institutions? Not throwing all cases in prison, even if they are mentally ill?

Best is to kill a child(but sometimes works with adults, too), because then you will be declared retarded in about 90% of all cases, you will be put into a mental home and can then flee when you´re out on a walk with an unarmed guard.

I dont know, but I would have to see some statistics before I believed that 90% of childkillers in Germany are declared insane? Or is this rhetorical?

You can´t think that every murderer will be a good member of society after some crazy psychologists pumped him full of drugs for some years or after he was in prison for five years.

Surely it would be the Psychiatrists would be the ones doing all this drug pumping? And no, thats exactly what Im saying, locking someone up is not the way to achieve anything. Bring in the Psychologists, and maybe something can be done...

About the story you heard on the radio... well it seems odd to me, rather strange. But surely the woman (the mother) has incriminated herself again, with threatening to murder her daughter, which can be then dealt another term for that crime?

[_Martyr_]

I see nothing productive about that.

Ok... well fortunately that doesnt mean its wrong!

Justice is achieved. A life is taken by one person who then must pay for such a mortal crime with his own life - whether that be wasting away in prison or death.

Well, there is the irreconcilable, fundamental disagreement we have on this issue. This is the predominant view in the States, but it is generally viewed by most other western nations that this approach achieves absolutely nothing other than brutal revenge, note, not Justice. Call me a pansy wearing liberal pinko if you will, but I like to think that society has come along just a little since the middle ages when these customs, acts and laws were universal.

As a side note, I like the turkish prison system, or what its made out to be in the movies.

yeah... Im sure you do.

Western prisons are way too easy going. They should suffer every day, all day for what they did. Exercise rooms, cable, good food, and comfortable beds just dont cut it as punishment or rehabilitation.

Yeah... a real walk in the park!

[Proletariat]

Well, there is the irreconcilable, fundamental disagreement we have on this issue. This is the predominant view in the States, but it is generally viewed by most other western nations that this approach achieves absolutely nothing other than brutal revenge, note, not Justice. Call me a pansy wearing liberal pinko if you will, but I like to think that society has come along just a little since the middle ages when these customs, acts and laws were universal.

Then I'm a liberal pinko too, because this was put brilliantly.

[Meneldil]

Very good post _Martyr_

On a sidenote, in France, if you kill someone, or even a whole familly in a car accident, you'll likely get one or two years in jail, maybe more if you were drunk before the accident, but that's all.
Actually, I don't really understand why people still kill with guns and not by buying a big car and rolling over everyone

That's screwed.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yanks? invade us? please?

We dont invade, but we will help in the removal of a screwed up government.

I can PM you George's telephone number, i think we can squeeze you in between Syria and France.

[doc_bean]

accident,

That says it all doesn't it ?

Accidents are things you try to avoid, or at the very least don't want to happen. If you followed all the rules, i don't think you should be jailed at all.

Have you ever driven around in a suburban/urban surrounding ? People seem to leap out from everywhere, kids are worse. Damn things act like they're immortal.

[JAG]

Rehabilitaion is the aim of punishment over this side of the pond. What greater achievement is there than taking a brutal murdering man, and after years of incarceration, including extensive psychological treatment and a host of other methods, producing a remorseful yet newly upstanding, profoundly changed individual, who regrets what they have done to the core. That seems like justice to me and far more productive than simply throwing away the key. An eye for an eye if you will, the killer removes an upstanding citizen from society, so society removes a murderer, and produces an upstanding citizen... the scales of justice are balanced.

Now dont get me started, I am the first to point out naked idealism, and there is no doubt that some people will are not reachable. But the fact remains that nothing at all is achieved by life term incarceration as a sole method of punishment. It clearly doesnt work as a deterant, or the murder rates in the US would be amounst the lowest in the world, not on the upper end of the scale.

Now that is not only one hell of a good post - - but something I can totally agree with.

[Fragony]

Ow let me tell you about dutch law, he will probably have to write 'it is not nice to rape and kill' a hundred times, then he will get a course on social behaviour and a ticket to sixflags to channel all that negative energy. Then he will be put at kindergarten to see if he has learned anything, and if he has he can form a commision to avoid such behaviour in the future.

on a more serious note, forget sixflags.

[doc_bean]

I don't agree with the current Euro justice system. Not because I want vengeance, I don't believe in vengeance. But because it makes a serious crime (like murder) a serious option.

You spent five or six years in jail and you got rid of someone who got in your way. Sometimes this could be considered a good deal.

Don't get me started on rape and child abuse laws, they're ridiculous. People who are obviously sick get released after 5 years and start all over again. Murderers might not kill again often, but pedophiles will abuse again most of the time, yet we let those people near our children again...

And jail is like Disneyland here, criminals go swimming, go on bike rides, they don't have to work, they get to play videogames all day long...

I'm very much pro rehabilitation, but I think jail should still be a place where you don't want to go. And i think that with certain types of criminals, we should be very careful when considering releasing them on the streets again, ever.

[Fragony]

He likes it.



a lot.

Another murderous psycho with TBS (which means you are beaucoup dangerous) that was 'on leave' or 'even helemaaaaaal weg', and to our utter amazement he has killed again yesterday! Ohnoes teh shock! All the experts said he was highly dangerous but that didn't impress the justice department at all, all homocidal serial rapists have rights here after all, right on a normal life. So it doesn't matter that you rape and kill, we all go crazy from time to time don't we?

Yanks? invade us? please?