Help Me With Dutch Law

[KukriKhan]

Hmmm...

Kidnapping, murder, paedophilia, capital punishment, mentally disabled people, minors, national lockup/rehabilitation schemes....

Yup, I'm in the Org Tavern.

You don't have to keep it light, but keep it right, gentlemen. Forum rules, and all. Thank you. Please carry on.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Wait, what ever happened to justice? Isn't a murder a murder? Either way, isn't someone losing their life? An innocent person being killed for no reason? Yet, I take it that in your opinion if the persons retarted or a minor it's alright, like they didn't even kill anyone? What ever happened to Justice? Obviously people like you don't care about the victims, the people who's lives were cut short by murderous cutthroats!

[bmolsson]

In Indonesia you get death for murder. Had a serial killer last year that got that. Yesterday a Pakistani citizen got death penalty for drug trafficking and I believe that next month we will see 2 out of 5 bombers of the Australian embassy get that too. What I can't understand is that Americans keeps on critizing Indonesia for being to rough, isn't it death penalty you guy's want it to be ??

[PanzerJaeger]

Said by Goofball-

Then I would imagine you would also cry out for regime change in a country that let's it's soldiers murder unarmed, wounded prisoners and lets them off with not so much as a slap on the wrist.

Nope because I understand the nature of war and what a combat situation dictates.. nice try though.

Said by Martyr-

Well, there is the irreconcilable, fundamental disagreement we have on this issue. This is the predominant view in the States, but it is generally viewed by most other western nations that this approach achieves absolutely nothing other than brutal revenge, note, not Justice. Call me a pansy wearing liberal pinko if you will, but I like to think that society has come along just a little since the middle ages when these customs, acts and laws were universal.

I dont have a problem with agreeing to disagree. Oh and i would call you a pansy liberal pinko but i fear you would enjoy it.

Said by Jimbob-

Nothing productive? Instead of taking two people out of the population, you take one, and replace one useless being with a human who is willing to work and sees their errors. Is that not a greater justice? If you died would you rather have your death destroy another, or have that person reenter society and do good?

Your idealism doesnt change reality. Also, where is the justice in allowing a murderer to enjoy a good life that the victim was robbed of. Taking human life in a "cold blooded" manner strips someone of their basic humanity, and they dont deserve it back.

I can point you to a number of studies that will tell you that during teenage years the brain is undergoing a growth spurt on the level that a three year old goes through. During this time teenagers don't have alot of self control, infact a pre-pubescant probably is able to act more rationaly than a 15-16-17 year old.

Cite them please. I was 15, 16 and even 17 and I had the basic self control it takes not to kill another human being, as did all my friends. No, im sorry, hormonal changes excuse a lot of things, but not murder.

Said by Bmolsson-

In Indonesia you get death for murder. Had a serial killer last year that got that. Yesterday a Pakistani citizen got death penalty for drug trafficking and I believe that next month we will see 2 out of 5 bombers of the Australian embassy get that too. What I can't understand is that Americans keeps on critizing Indonesia for being to rough, isn't it death penalty you guy's want it to be ??

I dont!

Indonesia, even with its imperfections, is a great example for the rest of the muslim world and even the west should adopt some of its stances, like their tough position on drugs.

[kiwitt]

In New Zealand it is the same as Holland; about 20 years (less for good behaviour).

It seems to work here, we do not need to try harsher sentences (i.e. Death Penalty) as a deterrent. It is better to try and rehabilitate the individual.

Have a look at these statistics

We have in New Zealand about 1 a week, whereas United States, which has the Death Penalty has the equivalent of 4 a week if populations were equal.

[PanzerJaeger]

The population makeup has to be examined though. America has a much larger under-class than NZ. That has a lot more to do with crime than prison sentences.

Now ive never been to NZ but it seems to my you dont have to deal with the inner city violence on a level that America does. I may be wrong though, as I know that part of the world has issues with asian immigrants.

[kiwitt]

We have our problems with "gangs", "drugs", etc. and is not particular safe in the earlier hours of the morning. Our Assault rates are similar, but escalating to murder does not seem to occur as much.

Interestingly, NZ has more than twice as much burglaries per capita than the US.

[JAG]

Rehabilitaion is the aim of punishment over this side of the pond. What greater achievement is there than taking a brutal murdering man, and after years of incarceration, including extensive psychological treatment and a host of other methods, producing a remorseful yet newly upstanding, profoundly changed individual, who regrets what they have done to the core. That seems like justice to me and far more productive than simply throwing away the key. An eye for an eye if you will, the killer removes an upstanding citizen from society, so society removes a murderer, and produces an upstanding citizen... the scales of justice are balanced.

Now dont get me started, I am the first to point out naked idealism, and there is no doubt that some people will are not reachable. But the fact remains that nothing at all is achieved by life term incarceration as a sole method of punishment. It clearly doesnt work as a deterant, or the murder rates in the US would be amounst the lowest in the world, not on the upper end of the scale.

Now that is not only one hell of a good post - - but something I can totally agree with.

[Fragony]

Ow let me tell you about dutch law, he will probably have to write 'it is not nice to rape and kill' a hundred times, then he will get a course on social behaviour and a ticket to sixflags to channel all that negative energy. Then he will be put at kindergarten to see if he has learned anything, and if he has he can form a commision to avoid such behaviour in the future.

on a more serious note, forget sixflags.

[doc_bean]

I don't agree with the current Euro justice system. Not because I want vengeance, I don't believe in vengeance. But because it makes a serious crime (like murder) a serious option.

You spent five or six years in jail and you got rid of someone who got in your way. Sometimes this could be considered a good deal.

Don't get me started on rape and child abuse laws, they're ridiculous. People who are obviously sick get released after 5 years and start all over again. Murderers might not kill again often, but pedophiles will abuse again most of the time, yet we let those people near our children again...

And jail is like Disneyland here, criminals go swimming, go on bike rides, they don't have to work, they get to play videogames all day long...

I'm very much pro rehabilitation, but I think jail should still be a place where you don't want to go. And i think that with certain types of criminals, we should be very careful when considering releasing them on the streets again, ever.

[Fragony]

He likes it.



a lot.

Another murderous psycho with TBS (which means you are beaucoup dangerous) that was 'on leave' or 'even helemaaaaaal weg', and to our utter amazement he has killed again yesterday! Ohnoes teh shock! All the experts said he was highly dangerous but that didn't impress the justice department at all, all homocidal serial rapists have rights here after all, right on a normal life. So it doesn't matter that you rape and kill, we all go crazy from time to time don't we?

Yanks? invade us? please?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

1 freaking year! Why does Miky Jackson live in the US?

Maybe because he can get out with nothing in the US ?

Louis,

[Proletariat]

Well, there is the irreconcilable, fundamental disagreement we have on this issue. This is the predominant view in the States, but it is generally viewed by most other western nations that this approach achieves absolutely nothing other than brutal revenge, note, not Justice. Call me a pansy wearing liberal pinko if you will, but I like to think that society has come along just a little since the middle ages when these customs, acts and laws were universal.

Then I'm a liberal pinko too, because this was put brilliantly.

[Meneldil]

Very good post _Martyr_

On a sidenote, in France, if you kill someone, or even a whole familly in a car accident, you'll likely get one or two years in jail, maybe more if you were drunk before the accident, but that's all.
Actually, I don't really understand why people still kill with guns and not by buying a big car and rolling over everyone

That's screwed.

[PanzerJaeger]

Yanks? invade us? please?

We dont invade, but we will help in the removal of a screwed up government.

I can PM you George's telephone number, i think we can squeeze you in between Syria and France.

[doc_bean]

accident,

That says it all doesn't it ?

Accidents are things you try to avoid, or at the very least don't want to happen. If you followed all the rules, i don't think you should be jailed at all.

Have you ever driven around in a suburban/urban surrounding ? People seem to leap out from everywhere, kids are worse. Damn things act like they're immortal.

[Meneldil]

Either it's an accident or not, killing a whole familly and getting only a few years in jail is *not* right.

Furthermore, a lot of these 'accidents' happen because someone did drive while being drunk or on drugs, or was trying to run an illegal race, or some other crap like that. That's a total lack of respect for other citizens, and it deserve a serious punishment.

And when you drive in a urban surrouding, you're supposed to drive more carefully than ever.
But yeah, things like that may happen. Though there's a difference between killing someone when you are respecting the rules/laws, and when you are outlaw.

[Husar]

I like to say that if you want to kill many people here, try to kill them all before someone catches you, be fast, because then you get those 20 years only once. If you miss one of 500 persons, you will have to kill him 20 years later and get punishment of another 5 years, so be fast.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

You see? Indonesia has a good law system. Do somthing bad, you don't have a chance to do it again buddy. Instead though, we have the socialistic pinkos of society forcing upon "rehibilitation" and "prisoners rights" LET ME TELL YOU SOMTHING: CRIMINALS DON'T REHIBILITATE! They never have, and they sure as hell never will. So by keeping Rapists, pedophiles, druggies, etc alive you are risking the lives of innocent people.

[_Martyr_]

Yeah, lets execute all those reefer smoking druggies! Hang em high boys! YeeHaw!



While we are at it, why not chop peoples' hands off for stealing, or how about public floggings for burglars!? No? Letting them off easy am I?

[Goofball]

You see? Indonesia has a good law system. Do somthing bad, you don't have a chance to do it again buddy. Instead though, we have the socialistic pinkos of society forcing upon "rehibilitation" and "prisoners rights" LET ME TELL YOU SOMTHING: CRIMINALS DON'T REHIBILITATE!

Well, you're wrong there. I have a friend who drove drunk (not plastered, but over the legal limit) about 15 years ago. He caused an accident that caused another person to be crippled for life. He served jail time, but is out now. He has a respectable job and has not once even considered driving drunk since, and never will again.

He is completely rehabilitated and is no danger to society. In fact, he contributes more to society than many people who have never been convicted of a crime, IMO.

So, is this the kind of guy you propose we should execute because he is "IMPOSSIBLE TO REHABILITATE?"

[PanzerJaeger]

May I ask how long he spent in prison?

[Goofball]

May I ask how long he spent in prison?

I believe his sentence was 5 years, but as he was an ideal inmate with no criminal history and very low risk of reoffending, he was out in a little less than three.

[PanzerJaeger]

I wonder how the person who is crippled for life feels about that sentence. "Oh well, no hard feelings."

[Productivity]

I wonder how the person who is crippled for life feels about that sentence. "Oh well, no hard feelings."

Probably unhappy. But then again, that doesn't change the fact that from all available information, he appears to be completely rehabilitated.

Is justice about revenge, rehabilitation or protection of the community? I would say it is the latter two, and they both appear to have been fulfilled here.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I wonder how the person who is crippled for life feels about that sentence. "Oh well, no hard feelings."

Which is why we don't let the victim set the punishment for crimes.

[PanzerJaeger]

Is justice about revenge, rehabilitation or protection of the community? I would say it is the latter two, and they both appear to have been fulfilled here.

There should be a degree of punishment associated with justice. I dont see it as fair or just that one person devestated another's life - and spent 3 years in jail. How long will the victim have to live being crippled? How much happyness will he miss out on while the drunk lives a normal life?

Which is why we don't let the victim set the punishment for crimes.

Why not?


Nobody ever thinks of the victims anymore, and its truly sad. Whether victims of crime, abortion, or 9/11 - people always seem to focus on the criminal.

"Why should he get any more than a few years if he's rehabilitated?"
"Who are we to stop a mother from killing her own child?"
"How dare we force the poor terrorists to listen to Christina Agulara?"

Its all the same and it all points to a sad shift in public perception. We need to start thinking more about the innocent, not the guilty.

[kiwitt]

1 freaking year! Why does Miky Jackson live in the US?

I think he could be considering leaving according to Jermaine Jackson. see NZ Herald

[Kanamori]

"Why not?"

Because then the punishment is neither fair, nor just. If the pattern for sentencing varies for the same type of offence, the system is doomed to inconsistency.

[JimBob]

Yet, I take it that in your opinion if the persons retarted or a minor it's alright, like they didn't even kill anyone?

It' s not alright it is wrong. But you do not destroy one person for destroying another, that is eye for an eye in the Hamburain sense. If someone destroys someone then that person who was previously a drain on society should replace the person who was destroyed, and become a productive member of soceity, eye for an eye in the Jewish sense.

Cite them please. I was 15, 16 and even 17 and I had the basic self control it takes not to kill another human being, as did all my friends. No, im sorry, hormonal changes excuse a lot of things, but not murder.

We're not talking about hormonal changes, we are talking about the part of the brain that controls self control among other things not being developed.
http://www.mohonasen.org/03parents/H.../teenbrain.htm
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/03/08/24.php
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
http://www.selu.edu/Academics/Facult...n_article.html
The brain’s frontal lobes (the areas that aid self-control, judgment, emotional maturity, organizing and planning) begin to grow again, starting at about age 10 for girls and age 12 for boys.
They found that adolescents undergo dramatic changes in the frontal lobe, or prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain critical to judgment, reason, self-control and planning.
You never commited murder because you never had reason, but if the idea gets into one's head, it is far more likely to take off, and far harder to stop.

So by keeping Rapists, pedophiles, ?druggies?, etc alive you are risking the lives of innocent people.

OH GOD DRUGGIES! Their nefarious laughter at shiny objects, thier dazed look, their munchies could be the end of America as we know it, and those Neo-marxist Trotskist pinko commmies could invade. All because of...Reefer *end 50's informational video voice. Dude you do know that reefer madness was a joke?