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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Click it or ticket

    Click it or ticket
    Walter E. Williams (archive)

    June 15, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Send

    The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), an office within the U.S. Department of Transportation, just finished its annual campaign to get us to wear our seatbelts under a program called "Click It or Ticket." States receive federal subsidies to ticket drivers if they or their passengers are not buckled up.

    Some states, such as Maryland, are so eager that they've equipped their officers with night vision goggles, similar to those used by our servicemen in Iraq. Maryland state troopers bagged 44 drivers traveling unbuckled under the cover of darkness. The NHTSA's "Click It or Ticket" program is another step toward making Americans serfs of the state.

    Let's look at it. I personally believe that wearing seatbelts is a good idea, and I buckle up and remind my passengers to do so as well. Because seatbelt usage saves lives, mandating such is an abomination in a free society. There are many other legislative actions that are offensive to liberty and can have saving as their justification, a matter I'll turn to later. But let's talk about the immorality of mandated seatbelt usage.

    Let's start with the question: Who owns Walter E. Williams? Is it President Bush, the U.S. Congress, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, or do I own myself? I'm guessing that any reasonable person would agree that I own Walter E. Williams. The fact that I own myself means that I have the right to take risks with my own life but not others'. That's why it's consistent with morality to mandate that my car have working brakes. If my car doesn't have working brakes, then I risk the lives of others, and I have no right to do so. If I choose not to wear a seatbelt, then I risk my own life, which I have every right to do.

    Of course, if it's stipulated that President Bush, the Congress or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania owns me, I have no such right; I'd be risking their property. Some might rejoin by saying, "Williams, if you're not wearing a seatbelt, and don't do us the favor of dying in an accident and become an incapacitated vegetable, society will have to bear the expense of taking care of you." That's not a problem of liberty and self-ownership. It's a problem of socialism.

    There's no moral case for forcing anyone to care for me for any reason. When we buy into socialism, we buy into paternalistic government. It reminds me of what my mother used to say during my rebellious adolescent years: "Boy, as long as you're living in my house and I'm paying the bills, you're going to do what I say!" Paternalism is OK for children, but is it suitable for adults? For those who agree with "Click It or Ticket" because it saves lives, would they agree with other possible lifesaving mandates?

    Each year, obesity claims the lives of 300,000 Americans and adds over $100 billion to health care costs. Should government enforce a 2,000-calorie intake limit per day? There's absolutely no dietary reason to add salt to our meals. Salt can lead to hypertension-induced heart attacks that kill thousands. Should government outlaw salt consumption? Sedentary lifestyles have been shown to lead to shorter and less healthy lives. Should there be government-mandated exercise programs?

    The justifications used for "Click It or Ticket" can easily provide the template for government control of our diets and other lifestyle features. Maybe I'm a bit out of touch with today's Americans. With the silence in the face of attacks on Burger King and McDonald's, alleging they cause obesity, maybe Americans are pining for more government control over their lives -- and "Click It Or Ticket" is just softening up the rest of us for what lies ahead in the future.
    I despise all these unconstitutional laws made to protect you from yourself. Nowdays the law isnt about justice its more about money. Police are nothing more than tax adjusters and collectors for the state around here.
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  2. #2
    Lurker Member Mongoose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Why don't they just raise taxes? It would be alot easier...

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Let's draw and quarter everyone who doesn't wear a safety belt.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 06-16-2005 at 03:53.

  4. #4
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    I'm with you on this one Gawain. A law making seatbelt use compulsory is about as sensible as a law against suicide.
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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    The Orgs Prophet of RATM Member IrishMike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Well as I just got back from a 4 hour drive on the interstate, I don't see whats the big bother. Its not like their uncomfortable, or cumbersome.
    When ignorance reigns life is lost.

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by ColdKnight
    Well as I just got back from a 4 hour drive on the interstate, I don't see whats the big bother. Its not like their uncomfortable, or cumbersome.
    It's the principal of the thing, dammit!
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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  7. #7
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Oh c'mon now! If you don't force people to wear a seatbelt you'll increase the amount of money your incredibly generous health system pays out to heal uninsured people who are injured in car accidents.

    Or are you saying you want to see your taxes go up to help support an increasingly socialized health system?

    Must... not... laugh...
    Unto each good man a good dog

  8. #8

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    Oh c'mon now! If you don't force people to wear a seatbelt you'll increase the amount of money your incredibly generous health system pays out to heal uninsured people who are injured in car accidents.

    Or are you saying you want to see your taxes go up to help support an increasingly socialized health system?

    Must... not... laugh...
    It still sucks in Canada. The only reason we have to wear seatbelts is because it's more expensive to fix you up or scrape your mess off the road.

  9. #9
    (Insert innuendo here) Member Balloon Bomber Champion DemonArchangel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Seatbelt Law=Law. Thus it should be enforced until the law is overturned or otherwise no longer relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    China is not a world power. China is the world, and it's surrounded by a ring of tiny and short-lived civilisations like the Americas, Europeans, Mongols, Moghuls, Indians, Franks, Romans, Japanese, Koreans.

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Seatbelts are mandatory in Canada as well, and we also have our group of malcontents who decry the seatbelt law as one of the worst injustices perpetrated since we stole all of the Indians' land.

    This whole issue falls into my "With everything else that is wrong with our country, what kind of idiot do you have to be to waste your time and energy fighting against a law that will possibly save your life?" category.

    But, I guess every country has its windmill jousters, so if it makes you happy, have at 'er....

    "What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Seatbelts are mandatory in Canada as well, and we also have our group of malcontents who decry the seatbelt law as one of the worst injustices perpetrated since we stole all of the Indians' land.

    This whole issue falls into my "With everything else that is wrong with our country, what kind of idiot do you have to be to waste your time and energy fighting against a law that will possibly save your life?" category.

    But, I guess every country has its windmill jousters, so if it makes you happy, have at 'er....

    I'm no Quixote, and I'm no idiot. Besides, the law won't save my life; whether or not I choose to buckle up will.

  12. #12
    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by NeonGod
    I'm no Quixote, and I'm no idiot. Besides, the law won't save my life; whether or not I choose to buckle up will.
    That's right, and since many more people choose to buckle up rather than risk a $100 ticket (because for some people, the risk of death or disfigurement is not enough motivation to wear a seatbelt ), the law is actually saving lives.

    You can spin this any way you want, but the bottom line is that out of all the possible things we should be spending our time protesting against, paying a fine if we don't wear a safety device should rank extremely low on the list.

    Let me ask you two questions:

    1) Do you wear your seatbelt when you are in a vehicle?

    2) If yes, would you stop wearing your seatbelt if they repealed the law?
    "What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"

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  13. #13
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    That's right, and since many more people choose to buckle up rather than risk a $100 ticket (because for some people, the risk of death or disfigurement is not enough motivation to wear a seatbelt ), the law is actually saving lives.
    And so would a mandatory 2000 calorie maximum intake on your diet save lifes. Thats not the governments job damn it. How come ciggarettes are legal? How about we just make cars illegal. That would save more lifes than anything. As I said its all about money. The insurance companies save money if you dont get killed or injured as bad and the government makes money if you dont wear your seatbelt. As Ive stated many times before freedom is not free. The more free you are the greater the risks and responsibilities you must be willing to accept. As for me give me liberty or give me death.
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    I always wear a seatbelt and no one is allowed in our car unless they wear one also. You may refuse if you wish, and you may walk.

    I have no problem with seatbelt laws. People who fight seatbelt laws are simply people who want to fight.
    Unto each good man a good dog

  15. #15

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    That's right, and since many more people choose to buckle up rather than risk a $100 ticket (because for some people, the risk of death or disfigurement is not enough motivation to wear a seatbelt ), the law is actually saving lives.
    Let 'em die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    You can spin this any way you want, but the bottom line is that out of all the possible things we should be spending our time protesting against, paying a fine if we don't wear a safety device should rank extremely low on the list.
    That doesn't change the logic behind the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Let me ask you two questions:

    1) Do you wear your seatbelt when you are in a vehicle?

    2) If yes, would you stop wearing your seatbelt if they repealed the law?
    1) Of course.

    2) Of course not.

  16. #16
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Its not like their uncomfortable, or cumbersome.
    They most certainly are. They also help cause accidents. I cant tell you how many times I havent seen a car on my side because I couldnt turn my head around to see it because the seatbelt stopped me. Or trying to get money out of your paocket as you approach a toll booth with your seatbelt on is more dangerous than with it off. I can state that I drive much better without a seatbelt on. Hey lets make everyone wear a helmat and driving suit like in Nascar and put roll cages in them all also. Imagine how many lives would be saved.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  17. #17

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    They most certainly are. They also help cause accidents. I cant tell you how many times I havent seen a car on my side because I couldnt turn my head around to see it because the seatbelt stopped me. Or trying to get money out of your paocket as you approach a toll booth with your seatbelt on is more dangerous than with it off. I can state that I drive much better without a seatbelt on. Hey lets make everyone wear a helmat and driving suit like in Nascar and put roll cages in them all also. Imagine how many lives would be saved.
    But that would cost way more money than it would to save their lives in a hospitable...right?

  18. #18
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    They most certainly are. They also help cause accidents. I cant tell you how many times I havent seen a car on my side because I couldnt turn my head around to see it because the seatbelt stopped me. Or trying to get money out of your paocket as you approach a toll booth with your seatbelt on is more dangerous than with it off. I can state that I drive much better without a seatbelt on. Hey lets make everyone wear a helmat and driving suit like in Nascar and put roll cages in them all also. Imagine how many lives would be saved.
    taking this discussion to the level of nascar security and helmets is just silly...

    the bottom line is that seatbelts save lives and $$$ in health expenses.....

    by your line of reasoning i assume that you defend that motorcicle riders shouldnīt wear helmets if they didnīt want too...right?...

    ...and letīs not forget the number of people that might not die in their accidents but end up in the hospital a complete vegetable because they were not using a seat belt....and THEN weīre gonna be arguing here because you think itīs wrong to pull the switch on these living vegetables......i say we cut our losses and have everyone use a seat belt...uhhhkay?
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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  19. #19
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Since you are on a public road, you must obide by the rules of that public road even if they seem irrelevant or annoying. In the middle of the desert, a hundred miles from the nearest other car, you still have to stop at a stop sign. Rules of usage apply to all, ar at least almost all, public actions.

    However, Gawain, while enjoying the unbridled freedom of your home and castle, you may, with good conscience, play ball in the house, smoke in bed, drop the soap in the shower, stick a fork in the toaster, flush a tampon, chew with your mouth open, and sit far, far too close to the TV. All of this, and more, shall we grant you the freedom to do.

    But when on Rome's roads...
    Unto each good man a good dog

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    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    They haven't actually stepped up reporting of driving w/o a seatbelt, here. The law only exists as a way to compel people to drive w/ their seatbelts on.

    They also help cause accidents. I cant tell you how many times I havent seen a car on my side because I couldnt turn my head around to see it because the seatbelt stopped me.
    I couldn't tell you, either, because it has never gotten in my way. (Did you know you can set up your mirrors so that you have no blind spot at all?) My helmet has never gotten in my way when I ride my bike, and it has saved me from some nasty rocks colliding w/ my face on the interstate.


    There is such a thing as government being too involved, and if they really started pulling people over w/ night vision goggles that would be too much government, but there is also such a thing as too little government; that's why we have one in the first place.

  21. #21
    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    I cant believe what Im reading!!

    Of all the things in the world to get excited about... Oh I give up!

    This has to be the stupidist thing Ive heard in a long time!

    Whats next?
    Eppur si muove







  22. #22
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    I really don't understand all these posts about how it's a silly thing to get worked up about. It's not as if I'm going on a protest march, or steaming at the gills. I'm posting on an internet message board that I think it's not a good law.

    Not too much of an expenditure of effort involved in that. Lots of things talked about on these boards are fairly insignificant, really. I mean, it's 20 to 2 in them morning. I haven't got much else to do really...
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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  23. #23

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    The NHTSA's "Click It or Ticket" program is another step toward making Americans serfs of the state.
    Well Walter has really come up with a beauty there hasn't he , enforcing safety regulations on the public highway is a step towards serfdom .

    Whatever next a campaign to stop airlines getting people to buckle up during take off and landing , sure its just the same as being a passenger in a car , you only put your own life at risk , oh apart from anyone else in the vehicle whose skulls you mange to smash as you fly from your seat , but hey if they hadn't been silly and fastened their seatbelt they would have left their seat as well so they wouldn't be there for you to collide with .

  24. #24
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    As for me give me liberty or give me death.
    And driving without a seatbelt gives you both...perfect


    CBR

  25. #25

    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    And driving without a seatbelt gives you both...perfect
    Not neccasarily , it could give you years of painful reconstuctive surgery so that people don't get sick when they look at where your face used to be . But its okay doctors have nothing better to do than waste their time fixing up stupid people .

  26. #26
    The Orgs Prophet of RATM Member IrishMike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Hey they make lots of money fixing up people. So i'm sure they don't really mind if you don't wear one.

    Oh btw on that trip I went today, my dad didn't wear one. Nobody stopped us even though we went past at least 5 cops. So odds are if you don't wear one, they won't catch you.
    Last edited by IrishMike; 06-16-2005 at 02:13.
    When ignorance reigns life is lost.

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    I think that it's rather serious to let people, that can't decide if they need to wear a seat belt or not, be able to drive a car. Even more, how can we dare let them vote !!!

  28. #28
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    And driving without a seatbelt gives you both...perfect
    Not neccasarily , it could give you years of painful reconstuctive surgery so that people don't get sick when they look at where your face used to be . But its okay doctors have nothing better to do than waste their time fixing up stupid people .
    A friend of mine had a brother that drowned due to he got stuck in the seatbelt and couldn't get out of the car that went of a bridge. He was very smart to use the seatbelt. They forgot to write it on his grave stone though........

  29. #29
    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    As for me give me liberty or give me death.
    Well, if you really want liberty, as in true freedom of the individual, you can come on up north and be a practicing homosexual in the army and have an army homosexual marriage.

    Or are you saying liberty has limits?

    And are they mine, or are they yours?
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  30. #30
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Click it or ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    A friend of mine had a brother that drowned due to he got stuck in the seatbelt and couldn't get out of the car that went of a bridge. He was very smart to use the seatbelt. They forgot to write it on his grave stone though........

    thatīs when the old cost versus reward thing comes in........check out the number of people saved by the things...and the number of people that end up in situations like the one you described....the numbers will speak for themselfs i imagine.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
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