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Thread: Is sexual identity malleable?

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Is sexual identity malleable?

    Is sexual identity malleable?
    Chuck Colson (archive)

    June 15, 2005
    You see them at night in big cities: men dressed up as women, complete with makeup, jewelry, and high heels. Despite their best efforts, it’s not a pretty sight. Nor is the sight of men who take a more drastic step: undergoing so-called sex-reassignment surgery.

    When these surgeries were first performed at Johns Hopkins University in the early seventies, one psychiatrist—Paul McHugh—started asking questions about the wisdom of this. After all, the outcomes were not women, but grotesque caricatures of them.

    When McHugh became psychiatrist-in-chief in 1975, he decided to test the claim that men who underwent sex-change surgery were psychologically better off. He also wanted to study the outcomes of sex-reassignment surgeries performed on baby boys with ambiguous genitals.

    So McHugh encouraged the research of a colleague, psychiatrist Jon Meyer, who was following up men who received sex-change operations. Meyer found that most of the patients he located did not regret their surgery. But in every other respect, McHugh writes, “they were little changed in their psychological condition. They had much the same problems with relationships, work, and emotions as before [the surgery].”

    “I concluded,” he wrote, “that Hopkins was fundamentally cooperating with a mental illness.” Wouldn’t it be better, he thought, to concentrate of fixing their minds instead of taking the far more drastic step of re-arranging their genitals? Thanks to the research of Meyer and others, it became possible to do just that—to make sense of the mental disorders that were driving the request for the surgeries.

    McHugh then turned to the practice of sex-reassignment surgery for baby boys with ambiguous genitals. For years doctors had told parents that that their child’s sexual identity would conform to environmental conditioning: They would happily grow up as girls.

    But a study found exactly the opposite. These re-engineered boys endured “prolonged distress and misery.” When they discovered their true genetic heritage, most of them began to live as males.

    Given that there’s no evidence that sex reassignment surgery helps either adults or children, why did doctors recommend it in the first place? The answer is that psychiatrists were enamored of the feminist theory that sexual identity was determined, not by biology, but by cultural conditioning. Psychiatrists went along with this, despite the fact that animal research had long shown that male sexual behavior is directly derived from exposure to testosterone in utero. And so, today, the transgendered movement is firmly protected by rigid codes of political correctness. You’re a “bigot” if you say that a person is made a certain way and can’t change his gender.

    Well, thanks to this research, Johns Hopkins no longer performs sex-reassignment surgeries. But trendy ideologies are being used to argue for a host of feminist causes—like women in combat. When you hear them, tell people about the psychiatrist who took on the ideologies and proved that gender isn’t a preference or a choice. These psychiatrists found out, indeed, that human nature can’t be manipulated, that the Bible was right all along: We are made male and female in His image.

    For further reading and information:

    Paul McHugh, “Surgical Sex,” First Things, November 2004, 34-38.

    Oliver Burkeman and Gary Younge, “Being Brenda,” The Guardian (London), 12 May 2004. (Reprinted by Godspy.)

    John Colapinto, “The True Story of John/Joan,” Rolling Stone, 11 December 1997, 54-97.

    Allan Dobras, “The Homosexual Fifth Column,” BreakPoint Online, 13 September 2004.
    THe last line has to be BS. How could HE have made man and woman both in HIS image
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Throwing the Bible in there really doesn't add anything to the argument, does it? "You are what you are; oh yeah, believe in Jesus." Great.

    I like the article, but I'm sure that more than one case study must be performed to make anything clear.

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Aren't there certain cultures in which gender roles are reversed, though? I can't think of any of the top of my head, but I know I studied some a couple years back as part of my sociology course. That seems to suggest it's more down to nurture.
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax
    Aren't there certain cultures in which gender roles are reversed, though? I can't think of any of the top of my head, but I know I studied some a couple years back as part of my sociology course. That seems to suggest it's more down to nurture.
    Without presenting specifics, the article leaves it open to interpreted universally, but only takes into account a North American (or just American) case. You're right, not all gender roles are the same; it's like I said - it needs more study.

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    THe last line has to be BS. How could HE have made man and woman both in HIS image

    well actually there is evidence that shows that all life forms were "female" at some point...we males are just an adaptation....so.....we could all have started in "his" image...loool...


    *man...that´s gonna start some fun*
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Most guy's these days are pussies anyway, so why the fuzz.......

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    well actually there is evidence that shows that all life forms were "female" at some point...we males are just an adaptation....so.....we could all have started in "his" image...loool...


    *man...that´s gonna start some fun*
    Hmmm. I guess. You mean like the Praying Mantis, shich is asexual but lays eggs? If alternatively you are suggesting that early organisms had female sexual orientation with no opposite sex, then I find it hard to believe.

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    The Orgs Prophet of RATM Member IrishMike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Yeah i'm confused there to. Mabey you could expound on that statement?
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    I don't really think this study by this guy is that credible, especially when you read the write up on it. It seems he didn't study these people as a neutral trying to find out the reality, but as an anti sex change, anti transsexual person trying to prove how wrong it is. That can't be good grounds for psychological study.

    Anyway, there are other studies which 'prove' the complete opposite, so this is just another one on to the pile.

    I still believe it is down to personal experience as well as anything else. We all are influenced by our social experiences and our choices we have made during our lives which give us different experiences - it leads to totally different outcomes.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

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  10. #10
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Hmmm. I guess. You mean like the Praying Mantis, shich is asexual but lays eggs? If alternatively you are suggesting that early organisms had female sexual orientation with no opposite sex, then I find it hard to believe.

    no such extreme examples are needed.....just look at the crocodile that lays eggs that can produce either male or female offspring.....with the deciding factor in that case being just the temperature that the eggs are attched(spelling?) at higher temperatures produce males...and the ones at lower temperatures produce females...this has been proved by scientific experimentation....so you have a situation were the "fetus"..let´s call it that...has a "default" sexuality that can be changed by the ambient ...in this case by the temperature.......i´m sure anyone who has seen a nature documentary is familiar with this as it is a rather popular subject for those programs.

    it´s been largely suported that the same happens with other animals and with humans too.......the deciding factor there being hormones that the fetus is exposed to....despite the fact that the XX or XY nature of the fetus is decided at conception the fetus only starts developing masculine traits when it is exposed to certain hormones in the womb.....the names elude me now...but i´ll look up the data tomorrow..(it´s nearly 4 a.m. over here and i´m about to fall over)....

    a simple evidence of this is simply checked...you guys out there....look down your shirt....you got niples right?.....ever wondered what the hell they are there for?......they serve no biological need.....unless if you consider some sexual games as a biological need

    they are simply there because when we were fetus we allready had them before the hormones started to turn us into manly man...

    so....Adam my ass.....Eve was here first...we´re version 2.0....

    p.s.- but really i just brought this up so i could make a joke with Gawain´s reply
    Last edited by Ronin; 06-16-2005 at 03:44.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
    - Calvin

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    a simple evidence of this is simply checked...you guys out there....look down your shirt....you got niples right?.....ever wondered what the hell they are there for?......they serve no biological need.....unless if you consider some sexual games as a biological need
    Actually, sex is the main reason the male nipple is still around.

  12. #12
    The Orgs Prophet of RATM Member IrishMike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeonGod
    Actually, sex is the main reason the male nipple is still around.

    What? How can you justify that statement. Without being smart and saying that if their wasn't sex, their wouldn't be males.
    When ignorance reigns life is lost.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColdKnight
    What? How can you justify that statement. Without being smart and saying that if their wasn't sex, their wouldn't be males.
    You mind-reading little..

    Actually, the male nipple serves a fairly prominent sexual purpose. Admit it, some attention there while you're getting it on feels pretty damn good. Anyway, it's still around is because of the sexual function it serves. I'm not really an expert on it enough to go into the logistics of the nerves and the process they've undergone through evolution to enlighten anyone on the subject; all I know is that if the sexual function hadn't been adopted, the nipple would largely not be the same as it is now.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Actually, the male nipple serves a fairly prominent sexual purpose.
    Care to explain how male cats and dogs use it for sexual purpose?

    It's seems to be semi-useless to useless, but only when it's gets more than useless (you can put something more useful there as an example) it evolves away.

    Why Do Men Have Nipples?


    And about the article. It states we are who we are, and I agree with that (I seen a programme about of those infant sex change experiment and it proved what is said here and it didn't end happily), but the sum up feels suspicious, as the point is the induviduals, not the sexes.

    A maskuline girl will always feel best as a maculine girl, and a person feeling trapped in the wrong sex will continue to feel it, without a sex-change (even though that won't be a salvation or something like that).

    But used as a point on that not all differances between the sexes it cultural (that it is something you are, not something you become) it works. Although how the differences show up depends on society.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    strange article Ironside, but valid. Kind of begs the question, what was the original purpose of the appendix. because I had appendicitis about a year ago, and to my knowledge it is a useless organ.

  16. #16
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wazikashi
    strange article Ironside, but valid. Kind of begs the question, what was the original purpose of the appendix. because I had appendicitis about a year ago, and to my knowledge it is a useless organ.
    First site I found that was talking about it and as you said valid on the point, so...

    On the appendix

    the human appendix is a derivative of the end of the phylogenetically primitive herbivorous caecum found in our primate ancestors. The human appendix has lost a major and previously essential function, namely cellulose digestion.

    Full article

    It's suspected that the appendix have some effects on the immune system though, so if it's entirely useless is not 100% certain.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is sexual identity malleable?

    Given that there’s no evidence that sex reassignment surgery helps either adults or children, why did doctors recommend it in the first place? The answer is that psychiatrists were enamored of the feminist theory that sexual identity was determined, not by biology, but by cultural conditioning. Psychiatrists went along with this, despite the fact that animal research had long shown that male sexual behavior is directly derived from exposure to testosterone in utero. And so, today, the transgendered movement is firmly protected by rigid codes of political correctness. You’re a “bigot” if you say that a person is made a certain way and can’t change his gender.
    That`s nonsense. Just as the entire article. There is indeed evidence that sex reassignment helps. In fact sex reassignment is the only way to deal with sex dysphoria. Furthermore it is completely wrong to say that the APA views surgery as necessary because feminists or that the explanation for sex dysphoria would be cultural conditioning. Rather the APA made no statement on what causes it. There is some research though that indicates that early hormonal anomalies are involved.
    BTW, I know psychatrists who are specialized in sex dysphoria, are quite conservative and would be insulted if you said they do what they do because of political correctness.
    It is obvious that Paul McHugh is one of these guys who disagree with medical tradition because it doesn`t fit in his worldview.

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