Liberty's revenge in the USA?

[Al Khalifah]

I never actually realised this was covered under the Patriot Act, but I guess it's the sort of thing I assumed would be contained in its grim words.

I (small) triumph in the battle to regain our civil liberties.

[PanzerJaeger]

If youre not a terrorist, why should you worry?

I (small) triumph in the battle to regain our civil liberties.

Oh please.. How have you or your liberties been affected by the Patriot Act?

[Tribesman]

If youre not a terrorist, why should you worry?
Well that depends on what they do with the information , if you buy a copy of Mein Kampf do you appear on the list of possible neo-nazis , if you buy a Koran do you appear on the list of possible Muslim fundamentalists , if you buy a biography of Che Guevara do you appear on the list of possible communist revolutionaries ?

[Don Corleone]

Actually, from what I understand, access to those memory banks isn't all that secure. There's a lawsuit pending in Nebraska where 4 employees were fired from an insurance company. They were fired because their employers accessed the book list through a 3rd party vendor, and discovered that these employees had bought porn at a local adult bookstore (on their own time). So they got canned on 'ethics & morality' clause in their contract.

[Ser Clegane]

Actually, from what I understand, access to those memory banks isn't all that secure. There's a lawsuit pending in Nebraska where 4 employees were fired from an insurance company. They were fired because their employers accessed the book list through a 3rd party vendor, and discovered that these employees had bought porn at a local adult bookstore (on their own time). So they got canned on 'ethics & morality' clause in their contract.

I am not quite sure what I find more disturbing about this - that the employer got access to this kind of information or that people can get fired for buying porn in their freetime

[PanzerJaeger]

Does it really matter what "list" your on? If you arent a criminal such a list, that may or may not exist, means nothing.

I just dont see it as the Bush administration's goal to create some big brother state.

This whole thing is just like Gitmo - a mountain made out of a mole hill for political reasons.

Ive been living under the patriot act for a few years now and - big surprise - nothing has changed. That might have to do with the fact Im a law abiding citizen though.

[PanzerJaeger]

sooo...I take it it's ok with you that the government knows what books you're reading, what TV programs you're watching, what you're thinking and who you're talking to...

perhaps a re-read of 1984 is in order ? ...

hold on a sec, there's a couple of gentlemen dressed in black suits that are loo-

^A perfect example of what im talking about. Leave the hysterics and Orwellian references at home please, they dont apply here.

[zelda12]

The applied force of a Democratic Government (I know its a republic but democracy sounds snazzier) is something that is one of the most brilliant inventions of Mankind. It has many flaws but it works, it may not work well at times but it is as fair and just a system of Government that we have come up with that will work on a large scale.

However when a Democratic Government takes one step beyond the line then it is no longer a Democratic Government (or Republic) it is only a totalitarian regime in the making.

That line is very simple, it is the line that says that every man is entitled to freedom within the law and that he will receive a fair and just trial, which he knows that he knows that what he does cannot be recorded by the Government and used against him, unless he was committing a crime.

Panzer if you think the Orwellian references are just silly I suggest you take a long hard look at what the Patriot act does, it allows the US Government to pry further and harder into almost every aspect of your life. That information will be stored, it won't go away and someday maybe a government official will have a reason to get you arrested and will use the records as evidence.

The Patriot act took the Republic of the United States of America closer to the invisible line than any Government should ever go, it is sitting right on the line, and if hinging towards the step over.

A democracy is a fragile and beautiful thing, it is our greatest hope for our children and any move that constricts the freedom of its citizens without them committing a crime is a crime itself, even more so as it may or may not have been introduced to heighten fears as well as protect the country.

[Goofball]

sooo...I take it it's ok with you that the government knows what books you're reading, what TV programs you're watching, what you're thinking and who you're talking to...

perhaps a re-read of 1984 is in order ? ...

hold on a sec, there's a couple of gentlemen dressed in black suits that are loo-

^A perfect example of what im talking about. Leave the hysterics and Orwellian references at home please, they dont apply here.

Now you know how us lefties feel when you guys swear that the inevitable result of allowing gays to marry will be farmers shagging their livestock and fathers impregnating their daughters. You can't belittle somebody else for using "slippery slope" arguments if you use them yourself.

[_Martyr_]

So let me get this straight...?

You see no potential or very real problems with this sort of carry-on. But, you view a safety law requiring people to wear seatbelts as an assault on your personal liberties!!!

Say what!??

[bmolsson]

Ive been living under the patriot act for a few years now and - big surprise - nothing has changed. That might have to do with the fact Im a law abiding citizen though.

Interesting, that is what the most Chinese says under the communist rule as well.....

[Al Khalifah]

The seatbelt law actually affects me. The Patriot Act does not in any way, shape or form. Is that so hard to understand?

Sorry to keep going back to the pre-war Germany references, especially given the nationality of the person under-fire here. I don't like digging up this period from the past but I think this poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller is especially relevant for this quoute:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

The poem isn't Nazi specific. If you tolerate unfair or extreme measures because they don't affect you, then don't be surprised when one day extreme measures are introduced that do affect you and nobody stands up for you.

[Blodrast]

If youre not a terrorist, why should you worry?

Oh please.. How have you or your liberties been affected by the Patriot Act?

sooo...I take it it's ok with you that the government knows what books you're reading, what TV programs you're watching, what you're thinking and who you're talking to...

perhaps a re-read of 1984 is in order ? ...

hold on a sec, there's a couple of gentlemen dressed in black suits that are loo-

[Ronin]

If youre not a terrorist, why should you worry?



Oh please.. How have you or your liberties been affected by the Patriot Act?

in this forum i read just yesterday someone describing the compulsory seat belt law like an infringement on personal liberties......

but the patriot act is no problem......go figure...

[PanzerJaeger]

Said By PanzerJager in the seatbelt thread..

Couldnt have said it better myself. I thought i was the only one who had a problem with these "safety laws".

Goofball also had a point that this is a minor thing.. It should be included in a broader fight against all these safety laws.