America's irreplaceable ally

[sharrukin]

caesar44, Beirut's a Canadian.

While I don't think there is any big conspiracy for Isreal to control the world, I do not think we ought to support a country that has commited so much state sanctioned murder and destruction. I'm not saying we should cut off all communication or anything, just stop selling them weapons and stuff.

Oh, and move them from our "friend" list to "neutral" list. That'll teach em.

I assume you would include every Arab country in the world as well? There is not one of them who hasn't done far worse than Isreal.

[Beirut]

Mind you, given Sharon's history of directly participating in the killing of women and children, I have to admit to not feeling that bad about painting an ever so slightly skewed portrait of him.
That is an unproven allegation Beirut .
And it will remain unproven since the main witness (A Lebanese colonel who led the massacre oops security operation) who claimed to have evidence of Sharons complicity had the misfortune to walk into a bullet just before he was due at the war crimes tribunal .

We discussed this at great length in a previous thread. I'll see if I can find it.

Mind you, if we play Ol' Whatshisnames game and simply say that all my sources, up to and including the Jerusalem post and the major Israeli universities and their faculties, are all biased against Israel and the Jews and therefore irrelevant, then there's not much point in going over any of this again.

[Don Corleone]

Come on now, Beiurt, no fair mixing arguments. Nerouin did in fact employ the tactics you're discussing here, but if I remember correctly, the only source you could ever produce for assessing that quote to Sharon was Fatah's newspaper, and sorry, I will call that a source of questionable objectivity. Yes, there were tons of quotes in the Jerusalem Post claiming Sharon was complicit with the slaughter in those camps up in Lebanon, and based on that, I find it hard to believe he didn't play some role, but that doesn't mean you automatically win every point you and Nerouin ever debated.

[Papewaio]

All news sources are biased... its like a boat you need some ballast on the right and on the left... so all you need is two politically different news sources stating the same information and wham you have a fact sandwich.

Multigrain Rye Liberal spread with all organic butter on a base of Enriched White Conservative Bread smeared with a good helping of special interest (TM) oil based magarine. With just the facts meat inbetween.

[Beirut]

I agree that I may be mistaken for the quote I assigned to Sharon and I'll take my lumps for it. If I am wrong than I am wrong. What else can I say?

I did not say I won every argument with Ol' Whatshisname, I merely said that when the other side in a debate has nothing to say except "your sources are biased" no matter what the sources are, than a debate turns quickly into an elementary school argument with an intellectual depth of what kind of boots your mother wears.

If you will remember, Ol' Whathisname hit me with a question concerning something I wrote and for ten straight posts said nothing towards my responses "your sources are biased and therefore irrelevant". I think that gives me some small license to draw attention to that style of debating in order to avoid it again.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hmmm, I could have been mistaken. Seems he might have said "We control America" as opposed to "We the Jewish people control America."

Could you give the time and place where he said that and to whom he said it?

[PanzerJaeger]

I agree that I may be mistaken for the quote I assigned to Sharon and I'll take my lumps for it. If I am wrong than I am wrong. What else can I say?

Heh, posted at the same time as me..

[Don Corleone]

Oh, I don't disagree Beirut. The reason I dropped out of the whole debate was because I really disagreed with Nerouin's tactic. Hell, I was waiting for him to claim the Wall Street Journal was a pro-Palestinian biased source.

All I'm saying is that was a pretty explosive quote, and without proper documentation, you might want to save it. You've got better weapons in your arsenal.

Example: I cannot believe I'm the only Bush supporter who was shocked and disgusted by the shoddy treatment the First Lady received. And never an apology! It was clear to me that Sharon orchestrated the whole thing at the Wailing Wall to pander to his lunatic fringe, and it was unforgivable. What we do with Americans caught distributing state secrets, especially ones they have been specifically ordered not to share with the desired recipient, is our business. For Sharon to pull that crap, and then shake his head and say "What are you going to do..." Sorry, I haven't calmed down yet...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Example: I cannot believe I'm the only Bush supporter who was shocked and disgusted by the shoddy treatment the First Lady received.

You're not the only one. I know of this fellow who agrees with you, and boy is he nuts!

Actually, I agree with you. Bush should have said something like, "If you don't want to get caught, don't do it! And if you want to keep gettin $3Bn a year, then you had best shut your ugly mouth and apologize no matter what the (*&% we do with him."

And Beirut, I expected better of you than to drag out the dead horse that is the "Jews control America" arguement. It's like they can't accept that millions of citizens of the greatest nation, and democracy, on earth have decided to support Israel, the only democracy in the middle east, of their own free will. So they claim we are being tricked, oblivious that anyone could disagree with them could actually have thought about it on their own and come to a conclusion as a rational human that they don't agree with. Nope, anyone that doesn't agree with them has been manipulated by that large, shadowy, evil conspiracy. Sheesh.

Crazed Rabbit

[caesar44]

USoA , jews and israel :
1. in the cold war all the arab and islamic world was supporting the soviets (americas no 1 enemy) and israel (very small state in the middle of the islamic world) ah yes , was a base of operations for the americans
2. ten of thousands jews served in the US army from WW1 to this day while the arabs were serving under the mufti in hitler's army
3. most of the terror attacks on the US came from arabs and islamic people and there is a good cooperation between the CAI and the MOSAD against it
4. US is a democracy and israel is the only democracy from the the atlantic coast of africa to india !!! so whom the US should support ? the afganians ?
5. israeli-palestinian conflict - israel want's to stay in the "territories" and the palestinians want a state in it - whom the US supports? the palestinian demand !!!!!!
israel want's jerusalem to be it's capital and so the palestinians - whom the US supports ? the palestinian demand
israel want's to stay in the golan and syria want's it to - whom the US supports ? the syrian demand
6. the american intelligence got informations on the mass murder of jews in europe in 1942 to 1945 - not a singalbombing on the concentrations camps !!!

the US is the most hated state in the world (after israel) so if it's leaders decided to have some friends and israel is one of them don't let some arab propaganda to influence you , just see the american flags burning from mauritania to afganistan

[Beirut]

And Beirut, I expected better of you than to drag out the dead horse that is the "Jews control America" arguement. .

Crazed Rabbit

I expected better of the US. The horse is not dead by a long shot. It's not that the Jews control America, it's that America [...snip...] I'm sorry if that upsets you, but you should blame your government for doing it, not me for pointing it out.

What other country can sell US weapons technology to the highest bidder, tell the US to stuff their concerns in their collective national rectum, and then turn around and tell the US they better not be ten minutes late with this year's $3,000,000,000 handout?

"Because last year's $3,000,000,000 was fifteen minutes late and we're still mighty pissed about it! Oh, and we'll need more F-15s and access to your most secret spy satellites again."

[Efrem]

wow,

This is the first time I've seen beirut back down and make a post that isn't blantantly racist and offending....

Good job mate.

[Beirut]

Well thank you.

We do appreciate your support.

[Redleg]

I wonder what would happen if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

I wonder if those who are against Israel think about what exactly would happen in the Middle-East if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

Think about it for a minute or two - which country insures that Israel will survive? And its not America even if that is what many who are against Israel think.

Do some of you honestly think Israel will go quietly into the night if the United States halts it support of Israel? It will continue to exist - surrounded and besieged by its enemies. The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

Sometimes one must think beyond a pure emotional level about an arguement and think about the whole picture.

Such accusations as this show nothing more then an hostility - and a failure to think beyond one's own postion on the issue.

It's not that the Jews control America, it's that America [...snip...]

That Beriut is nothing other then an emotional appeal arguement bording on being insulting to all Americans - not just the government. It seems that one could accuse you of being anti-american when you spout such emotional charged arguements.


I'm sorry if that upsets you, but you should blame your government for doing it, not me for pointing it out.

When stating the country of America - one can assume you are refering to not only the government but the people of the United States at the same time. If you want to direct your comment at the American Government then state so - when one just states the country one is also talking about the people who live inside that nation.


Edit: Since the moderators edited out Beriut's comments - it still does not change the fact that such comments are on the borderline of insulting and attacking not only the government - but the people as a whole. And I appreciate the moderators editing out such comments since they generally would lead to a "flame war".

[KukriKhan]

Moderator Notice

Gentlemen, make your points with less "colour", if you please. PG ratings apply. Further colorful language, or allegations of racism, will result in official sanctions.

Thanks for your attention.

[English assassin]

I wonder what would happen if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

I wonder if those who are against Israel think about what exactly would happen in the Middle-East if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

Think about it for a minute or two - which country insures that Israel will survive? And its not America even if that is what many who are against Israel think.

Do some of you honestly think Israel will go quietly into the night if the United States halts it support of Israel? It will continue to exist - surrounded and besieged by its enemies. The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

You totally twisted what he said. Its not that Israel threatens the arabs but the other way around. It is the US that stops both sides from going to war. Only we stop Israel from doing what any other country in its position would do. That is defeat its enemys who would see it destroyed. Their not blackmailing us, were bribing them.

[Redleg]

Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

That is not what I stated - one must think through the possiblities before deciding on a course of action. The United States can do a better job of applying pressure to Israel through the economic channels that we provide them - but to completely cut them off would have drastic effects on the Middle-East. Which is exactly what I stated - and is most likely the course that would be taken if the United States government cut off its aid to Israel. Not withstanding the internal political pressure in the United States to prevent any such action - not from just any "jewish' lobby group - but many others

Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

Try again that is not the basics of the arguement concerning Israel and the Palenstine issue. Its far more then that. It would actually take several paragraphs to boil the arguement down to a basic prinicple - and it would not even do that then - there are many factors and issues involved in the Israeli-Palenstine issue - and that is only one of the issues involved. How many Arab countries have advocated the destruction of Israel, both in the past and the present?

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

Explain how my statement states that we should appease backmailer's - ie I am assuming you mean Isreal.

Or are you talking about the money the United States gives Egypt every year, or are you talking about the little amount the government gives the Palenstine Authority every year. The pitance we give the Palenstine authority is appeasement also, since its based upon the Palenstine Authority attempting to halt the terror attacks of Palenstine people into Israel.

At least if your going to accuse the United States of something - get the facts straight. The United States provides money to Egypt to insure the peace between the two nations - that is appeasement or more correctly a bribe to both nations, Israel and Egypt. Its been done for over 20 years now - we don't see anyone protesting against that now do we.

One must look beyond the narrow scope of just Israel-Palenstine that some of you are looking at. What nation in the Middle-east is truely an ally of the United States? Is it Saudi Arabia - nope - that country has been playing both sides against the middle for decades. Is it Egypt - getting better but still not an ally. Jordan - another country that plays both sides against each other. And the list goes on. Israel is not the perfect country - nor is it our best ally. Nor if you go into my past arguements about Israel - will you find that I believe Israel is truely in the right. However I find the actions of the past have influenced Israel - ie three attacks by Arab nations to destroy the state of Israel and a continued terrorist campaign by the Palenstine terror groups since before 1970, led by the PLO and now other groups.

I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

I am not the white house - I am an American who took issue with Beruit's attempt at insulting not the government of the United States - but all Americans with his comment which the moderators have now edited. Nor is it an attempt to rationalize anything - you can not rationalize irrational violence - especially when its advocated by both sides. There are Israeli citizens that call for the destruction of anything to do with the Palensitne Authority - just as there is a group of Palenstine people who will not be statified until the state of Israel is destoried.

[English assassin]

At least if your going to accuse the United States of something - get the facts straight.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I wasn't even citing any facts. I'm observing that whereas this may be true:

The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

Its a dubious moral basis for supporting a regime. That's all

[Redleg]

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I wasn't even citing any facts. I'm observing that whereas this may be true:



Its a dubious moral basis for supporting a regime. That's all

And in that you are incorrect - its not a moral bais for supporting a regime. It is a statement of preception of an individual based upon his understanding of what is happening over in that part of the world.

[Goofball]

The Jewish lobby in the US is second only to the gun lobby. No other country on Earth can manipulate the US as well as Israel. Even Americans cannot manipulate America as well as Israel can.

One day, I swear...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United Sates and Israel."

*hands Beirut a beer, a calculator, a Speak-n-Spell with no batteries in it, and 50 pages of spread sheets containing random letters and numbers*

You're right Beirut. You've stumbled onto the edges of the Global Zionist Pentavorate for Badness and Meanness In General. Our operatives have obtained these documents, which we believe contain the secrets of the Jewish mind control machine. We have also managed to capture one of these machines, but haven't figured out how to use it yet. We figure you are just the man to get to the bottom of this for us. Let us know how you make out, and just call out whenever you need another beer.

*locks Beirut in a small, padded room with the above-mentioned items*

[_Martyr_]

If Beirut has ever seen MacGyver he'll have noo problem getting out of that padded room with all that equipment you just gave him!

[xemitg]

If memory serves, the Israelis are the ones who manufacture the uzi. We need those so we will always be friends with our Jewish neighbors.

[Tribesman]

Yes, there were tons of quotes in the Jerusalem Post claiming Sharon was complicit with the slaughter in those camps up in Lebanon,
Don , the original inquiry found that he was complicit through negligence , incompetance, inaction and failure in duty . But not complicit in the actual slaughter . The person who was assassinated claimed to have evidence that he was complicit in the actual massacre , but as he was killed before he testified and the evidence he claimed was in safe hands just in case such an event occured has never surfaced .
Though of course unless he did have real evidence to back up his claims I don't think his testimony would have stood up to much as he could hardly be described as a reliable witness .
It may be true , but it may be not , which is why I wrote "unproven" not "unfounded" .

[Don Corleone]

I said complicit, not directly resonsible. I agree, I don't envision Sharon allowing the Israeli troops to assist in the refugee troops back in 82, but I'm also convinced he knew exactly what was coming next when he allowed the Christian militia groups to occupy them.

You can't throw a rabid dog into a nursery, lock the door, and say "Well, how did I know it was going to bite somebody?"

[caesar44]

Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

oh please before attacking israel on its atomic bombing (what ? where ? how ? when ?) explain us why england have an atomic bomb .....
and yes before talking about the palestinians please get out of north ireland ................................................. my god what a self righteousness

[Don Corleone]

Northern Ireland is not a good corrolary for many, many reasons, but in your case, primarily because a majority of the people that live there wish to remain subjects of the Crown.

[Steppe Merc]

I assume you would include every Arab country in the world as well? There is not one of them who hasn't done far worse than Isreal.

Yes. Fair is fair.

[Proletariat]

I love this place when Don C, Redleg, Xiahou are back to battle with and against Goofball, Beirut, Gawain, EA, and the rest of you din and tumult wreakers.

[Beirut]

GUILTY!

It would seem I have offended more than one person with my choice of words and careless generalizations. I would like to apologize to those who feel slighted and I will try to chose my words more carefully in future posts.

I stand by the general intent of what I said - I fully believe that the American government acquiesces to Israeli demands far too easilly and with careless disregard for the consequences, but obviously I should have taken more care in saying it as to not paint my individual American friends as anything but the fine folks I know them to be.

Y'all may consider me spanked.