Stars and Bars - Is it acceptable?

[Steppe Merc]

My dad and I last night was watching a documentry about Lynyrd Skynyrd last night. For those of you that might not know, Skynyrd was a Classic Rock band from the south, and the leader in particular, Ronnie Van Zant, was a proud Southerner. They always played with a huge Confederate Flag (the flag of the Southern states that secceeded from the Union, for any non Americans, if you were wondering) in the back, hanging up. They were far from racists, as they played with and loved black musicians and their music. They were also not ignorant rednecks, as they got involved with Carter's presidential campaign, and along with the Allman Brothers and other Southern groups, helped him raise money.

Now, my dad and I were just talking. He said that although he loved their music and thought they were good people, they were wrong for playing with the Stars and Bars behind them. He knew the true meaning of the flag- that of states rights, and of Southern pride. But he rightfully pointed out that it had and still is thought of as a racist symbol, and by using it, they allowed people to misinturpret them, and even though they didn't mean it, it gave more fuel to racists.

I said that I thought it was good that they played with it. They were trying to reclaim the true meaning of the flag, and they shouldn't allow people to use it just as a symbol of hate. If people misinterpreted their meaning, it's not their fault, it's the people's ignorance that is at fault. I mentioned the Swastika, and how it was originally a religous symbol in many many cultures. If someone were to use that symbol in the orginal meaning, I would be fine with it.

My Dad said that the public perception overpowers the original meaning. He knew that they didn't mean it in a racist way, and he knew where I was coming from, from a historical matter. But to prevent more harsh feelings, such contreversial symbols shouldn't be used, regardless of the intended meaning, because of how they would be used.

What do you all think? What is more important; the intended message of a symbol or the way that symbol is percieved? Sorry for using such an American example, but it's what we were debating about, and I'm not sure if there as many polorizing, misinterptred symbols such as the Confederate Flag.

[Duke Malcolm]

Isn't the confederate flag a mix of St Andrew's cross and St Patrick's cross? Doesn't it symbolise the states of the confederacy and the people's origins?

[Steppe Merc]

Exactly. It means Southern pride and states rights, not racism. Many people believe that the Civil War was fought about slavery, which I believe is incorrect. But many think it means racism and slavery, because of the use of it by the KKK and other racist organizations.
For example Southern Carolina flys the Confederate Flag. I don't see a problem with it, but many people do, either because they think it symbolizes racism and white supremacy, or because they know people will think it symbolizes that.

[doc_bean]

Exactly. It means Southern pride and states rights, not racism. Many people believe that the Civil War was fought about slavery, which I believe is incorrect.

It was fought over states rights, most importantly, the right to own slaves. I find the whole states right thing a nice way of rewriting history.

What other state right were they fighting for ?
(Besides, they left the Union before Lincoln was ever sworn in.)

But many think it means racism and slavery, because of the use of it by the KKK and other racist organizations.
For example Southern Carolina flys the Confederate Flag. I don't see a problem with it, but many people do, either because they think it symbolizes racism and white supremacy, or because they know people will think it symbolizes that.

Ah South Carolina, a state that had a senator that until a few years ago had a senator that had actively opposed the civil rights movement (really, some fun speeches that man had given), one that even went as far as to run for president so he could keep 'state rights'.


Now honestly, I don't really have a problem with the confederate flag. I think it is a symbol that can stand for the south, and not stand for all the negative things associated with it. However, I don't like revisionism. States rights were/are important, it's too bad they got used for excusing racism so often.

[Don Corleone]

What other state right were they fighting for ?
(Besides, they left the Union before Lincoln was ever sworn in.)

At the time of seccession, the Southern States had to get approval from Congress to raise the price of cotton, corn or any of their other goods. The North routinely blocked protection tariffs on cotton, peanuts, indigo and other agricultural goods coming in from foreign countries, while consistently increasing the tariffs on processed and machined goods or agricultural goods imported from other countries, such as coffee and tea. They wanted to establish a monopoly. You could argue that the root cause of the Civil War was the structure of the Senate. Why did Rhode Island & Connecticut get 4 votes in the Senate, when that's all Virginia and North Carolina got, even though they had 6 times the population at the time?

Slavery was a despicable practice that was abhorent and was actually a social cause in the South at the time as well. Less than 1% of whites in the South owned slaves, even though over 5% owned at least 50 acres of land or more. To say the Civil War was fought over slavery and slavery alone is akin to saying that WWI was fought solely as an exercise of Slavic nationalism. It focuses on the match, not what lay in the tinderbox. The vast majority of Southerners at the time saw the war as an invasion by a tyranical force that had ceased to be representational of their needs or welfare.

Now, the actual point of the thread was the Confederate Battle Flag. I think I heard a Southern US Army veteran put it best (I'm actually a yankee, and I've only lived here for 6 years, this guy works at my company). Regardless of your views on southern heritage, pride and states rights vs racsim, and the ensuing 140 years of Jim Crow & white supremacy in the South, there is one very simple reason we should not allow Americans to fly the Confederate Flag. By their own desire, they were a sovereign state that attacked a US military outpost and continued a war (sometimes aggressive, sometimes defensive) for 4 years against our nation. Just as we do not honor the Union Jack (except for diplomatic reasons) or the Rising Sun, we should not honor the Confederate Battle flag, especially as the nation it represents no longer exists. And this was from as proud a Southerner as you'll ever hope to find.

[doc_bean]

At the time of seccession, the Southern States had to get approval from Congress to raise the price of cotton, corn or any of their other goods. The North routinely blocked protection tariffs on cotton, peanuts, indigo and other agricultural goods coming in from foreign countries, while consistently increasing the tariffs on processed and machined goods or agricultural goods imported from other countries, such as coffee and tea. They wanted to establish a monopoly. You could argue that the root cause of the Civil War was the structure of the Senate. Why did Rhode Island & Connecticut get 4 votes in the Senate, when that's all Virginia and North Carolina got, even though they had 6 times the population at the time?

didn't all states get 2 votes in the senate ? I thought that was written into the constitution.

And were the slaves counted as part of the population ? (or as 0.6 free man)

I'd also like to repeat that the I never said the war was fought over ideological reasons, there were a lot of issues surrounding slavery that led to problems too.

The hammer and sickle and other USSR related symbology is another good example. It is acceptable to paint this everywhere whenever trying to brand something as 'revolutionary' or 'communist' (despite being propagated by a capitalist mass-marketing machine, but thats another issue). Imagery of Stalin also seems tolerable. However, National Socialist Party symbology and imagery of Hitler is completely unnaceptable and the ban of all related symbology in Germany and the attempted ban throughout the EU reflects this. Where is the difference? Both of these men and their regimes were responsible for the purging and destruction of millions from entire groups of society, both domestic and foreign, yet one is acceptable (even cool) where as the other is totally taboo.

I think the difference is that Neo-Nazis still pose a threat. The proletarian revolution isn't likely to happen, in Europe we have communist parties, but they're just extreme socialists, they call themselves communists for sentimental reasons i guess.

Right-wing parties, often with ties to neo-nazi organisations (or nazi organisations, like the eastern front veterans) are often still major players in European politics. Neo-nazi's still run around, attacking Jews or burning down Mosques occasionally, or just starting fights with immigrants.

[ichi]

A guy on my Federal crew had a Stars n Bars bandana, which he wore as a doo rag, under his hardhat. During a break when he took off his hard hat I told him to get that gaudy seditious crap off his head. Why he asked, so I told him that was a flag of rebellion against the USA, the greatest country, and that it was the flag of a lost cause. To which he replied that the US was indeed great, and could have been better had the South won the War of Northern Aggression.

So I asked him if he had ever heard of the Macedonians. Who? They were an ancient Mediterranean people who eventually got dominated by the Greeks. Many Macedonians became slaves of the Greeks. I told my guy that he was a Macedonian slave, wearing the old Macedonian flag while in the service of the Greeks.

He walked around all day muttering under his breath.

Its an ugly flag, symbolizing not States Rights but armed rebellion, and has racist overtones as well.

ichi

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

that flag is the Confederate battle flag.

Why? you may ask, well, because the actual flag of the Confederacy was very similar to that of the Union and in the first few engagements this caused a great deal of confusion.

Saying that the Civil War was about slaves and their lack of rights is naive.
You do know that the Emancipation Proclamation had nothing to say about slaves that were owned in Union states...

[doc_bean]

You do know that the Emancipation Proclamation had nothing to say about slaves that were owned in Union states...

"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

That's nothing ?

[Pindar]

Its a....flag, symbolizing not States Rights but armed rebellion, and has racist overtones as well.

... there is one very simple reason we should not allow Americans to fly the Confederate Flag. By their own desire, they were a sovereign state that attacked a US military outpost and continued a war (sometimes aggressive, sometimes defensive) for 4 years against our nation.

I concur with the honorable gentleman from Utah and with the honorable gentleman from North Carolina.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Just because it can be used as a rascist symbol doesn't mean it is. The Swastika is religious in some cases, thats why it shouldn't be banned totally. The Hammer of Thor is religious to some people, but it's also a skinhead symbol. Almost anything can be interpeted as rascist, doesn't mean we should ban it.
Oh, and the 1st Confederate Flag was very union like, the 2nd looked like a white flag when it was in still winds, and the 3rd was the most liked cause it was the most recognizable (I have one in my room, on my wall right below a pic of jeff davis).

[King Ragnar]

The swastika was originally used by the Teutonic order wasn't it?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Edit (again): having re-read that again it definitely sounds like it's only against rebel states.

It was only against the rebel states . Slaves owned by Union states were not freed by it. That American history 101 even back when I went to school.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

The swastika was originally used by the Teutonic order wasn't it?

Ancient Samnites I beleive

[IrishMike]

Just because it can be used as a rascist symbol doesn't mean it is.

Yup I got the Maltese Cross in my car, and everyone always is like: Are you a Nazi?, because they associate it only with the iron cross. People who are ignorant of history and a certain symbol's past automatically associate it with popular culture. Just like people think i'm a nazi for having an ancient crusading symbol in my car. Silly.

[Samurai Waki]

Yup I got the Maltese Cross in my car, and everyone always is like: Are you a Nazi?, because they associate it only with the iron cross. People who are ignorant of history and a certain symbol's past automatically associate it with popular culture. Just like people think i'm a nazi for having an ancient crusading symbol in my car. Silly.

One of my teachers in Highschool was from Macedonia (actually Yugoslavia when she left) and whenever people would wear an "Independent" Skateboard Trucks Shirt with an Iron Cross she would get angry. I asked her why she didn't like the T-Shirt and She said That when the Nazis took over Yugoslavia many of SS soldiers there wore the Iron Cross over the Swastika, mostly because the Swastika was already a well used symbol by the Greek Orthodox in the Region. One day her entire family was confronted by a couple of SS soldiers and Her Grandmother and Grandfather tried to protect their children, both of them were shot right in front her father's eyes, and three of his brothers shot as well. He was then transported to a Concentration Camp, the SS kept calling him "Slavic scum" when he was in fact Greek from Thessalonikki. When he arrived at the Concentration Camp they poured Acid Down his throat, and beat him half to death. After a year of working in the Camp he was released by Soviet Troops.
I told her that the Iron Cross was no longer a symbol of Nazi oppression, she shrugged and told me "Do you think the families of former black slaves here, are still afraid of the Confederate Flag?" I replied "No. But it still symbolizes that atrocity."

[King of Atlantis]

As a southerner i have to say it is acceptable. The flag represents southern pride not any kind of hate. The American flag flew over slavery a lot longer than the confederate as did many other accepted flags.

I could discuss at length how the civil war was not at all about slavery, as the union also had slave states but im not really in the mood.

I was thinking about putting confederate flag next to american in my sig, but i didnt want to offend anybody. Lynard skynard should have definately used rebel flag as the were trying to represent the south.

[Kanamori]

Indeed, slavery was a point of friction, mostly in that it was a manifestation of the north vs. south confrontation. As Don points out, the friction arose in the tarriff battles, which was later manifested in the hot debate of states rights by calhoun and webster, two very important names in American history. (I think the time period is one of the most important in our histroy, and one of the most interesting, when politicians strongly beleived in what they were fighting for.) I've said it before, I believe, but prior to the immediate years prior to the war, the North was more vehemently anti-anti-slavery than was the South, because they feared the "loud mouthed moral zealots" -- like garrison, http://www.nps.gov/boaf/williamlloydgarrison3.htm, who was almost killed by a mob of rich people in Boston -- would cause secession (garrison publically burnt the costitution, and most of the anti-slavery movement was seen in the same light as him and John Brown). Anyways, I stray, the North-South battle over slavery was based in a power struggle, the North never had the intention to abolish slavery, merely halting its spread west. But, later on, when Lincoln was elected and the South saw it as, in a slippery slope way, as the end of slavery, and North Carolina followed through on its threat about thirty years ago. The emancipation proclamation was a succesful attempt to keep England and Europe in general from joining with the South, which is another side note of history, Lincoln succesfully kept the states from falling into war with England from a very precarious situation. I feel it is important to note that, while an extreme minority of southerners were slaveholders, it was a part of the American Dream to be rich enough to hold slaves. A good book on the issue is The Metaphysical Club, a few measly paragraphs cannot sum up the enormity of the issue and all of its history.

And, the South's extreme version of state's rights was on of the main reasons they lost the war.

[Pindar]

A good book on the issue is The Metaphysical Club, a few measly paragraphs cannot sum up the enormity of the issue and all of its history.

Good book choice there.

[InsaneApache]

Nor was the United States without active friends in England. Such reformers as John Bright and Richard Cobden spoke up vigorously in support of the Lincoln government, and even when the cotton shortage threw thousands of textile workers out of employment, the British working class remained consistently opposed to the Confederacy.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

I was told this as a child*. The workers in the Lancashire cotton mills refused to deal with Confederate cotton and placed it on an unofficial embargo. This was one of the first instances on the labour force flexing it's muscles, not for financial gain, but for a principle. So although it is generally acknowledeged that the war was not started on the issue of slavery, it quickly develpoed into that very thing. A similar scenario unfolded during WWII, which started as a response to the German invasion of Poland, but is now wildly seen as a war to combat Nazism.

I actually do think that the battle flag of the Confederacy represents the attempt to retain slavery, and therefore is a negative symbol. The Stars and Bars flag is not that generally well known (outside of the south that is) and I'd be surprised if anyone would be offended by it.

*by my great-grandmother who was born in 1874 and she was told by her father who took part in the protests.

[Al Khalifah]

The Southern Cross issue may seem ridiculous, but here's another flag that many consider offensive and as a result is now rarely flown because people believe it has racist undertones:

Yup, the current flag of England is now sparingly used officially and is only comfortably used by the majority of the population at sporting events where England is represented seperately from the United Kingdom. This is because it is believed to have racist undertones because it is used by far-right groups and is also considered a symbol of English nationalism. St. Andrews cross on the other hand is freely flown in Scotland, because it represents Scottish pride.
This is the current flag of nearly 50,000,000 people and yet it has be shunned into almost non-existance away from sports events and even then the PC Police are complaining that its usage is innapropriate and excessive.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Al Khalifa:
In Wales people get to fly the official Welsh flag without trouble.
Some people also take the flag of Owain Glyndwr (so basically the royal flag of the last bit of totalw Welsh political independence) to sports matches etc. This has been complained about for being racist but I believe is still tolerated by the authorities: that is very weird, no reason for those accusations at all.
In Wales you also see people flying St. David's cross a fair amount too, I'm not sure in anybody has any problems with this.