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Thread: Paging Amnesty International.

  1. #1
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Paging Amnesty International.

    Paging Amnesty International. Amnesty International to the front gate please:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/vincent200506140801.asp


    “Twenty five years ago,” he begins, ..., “my brother Samir was playing football in a field here in Basra. On the highway nearby passed a convoy of Baath-party officials. Someone shot at the Baathi — or perhaps simply fired a weapon in the air, who knows? Unsure who was responsible or why, the Baathists arrested everyone playing football and took them to prison.”

    Months went by, and the government refused to say what happened to Samir. With his family growing increasingly distraught, Ali took the hazardous step of visiting the party’s Basra headquarters to ask about his brother’s whereabouts. . . . “I was sent to prison for trying to find out if my brother was alive or dead,” Ali says.

    At one point in his imprisonment, the Baathists took Ali to a “special” interrogation room, and ordered him to strip off his clothing. The interrogator then offered Ali a choice — either he allowed torturers to shove a large bottle up his rectum, or hammer a nail into his back. “I chose the nail,” Ali recounts in a flat tone. Twisting in his chair, he lifts up his t-shirt to exhibit a quarter-sized lump in his shoulder blade. “Believe me, sir, you have not felt such pain.”

    Nine months later, the Baathists released Ali from prison — without, however, disclosing Samir’s whereabouts. Not until the collapse of Saddam nearly a quarter century later did information about missing Iraqis began to filter out to the public. “I met a man who was imprisoned with Samir,” Ali relates. “He said that my brother had gone crazy and began shouting — excuse my language, sir — ‘F**k, Saddam! F**k him! Why is he f**king us like this?’ Because of that, the regime sentenced him to death in a ‘slicing machine.’”
    I hope Galloway is proud.

  2. #2
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Well, this makes two threads in the last month I've done this with. BKS, backroom please?


    My apologies.

  3. #3
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Don't worry about it.
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    I hope Galloway is proud.
    And the link to Galloway is ????

    “Twenty five years ago,”
    So that would be 3 years before Rummy went to shake hands with Saddam
    So... I hope Donald is proud

  5. #5

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Drawing relativity is a weak tactic Tribesman.

  6. #6
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    The question at hand:

    Would that be considered a "gulag"?

    I mean, Gitmo is one...


  7. #7

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    According to AA, to be a gulag the people being mistreated have to be terrorists.

    These poor guys were just playing soccer when they were picked up and thrown in the slicing machine - obviously not a gulag in AA's eyes.

  8. #8
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Hey look! They're on it!

    ...repeatedly called on the UN Commission on Human Rights to appoint a special rapporteur on Iraq
    And despite this forceful and effective effort, Samir still got fed through a paper shredder. I'm shocked that Saddam Hussein did not listen to this incredibly important group! And the UN! Wow, this must be the first time they've ever been unsuccessful in prosecuting abuses of human rights. Thank God groups like AI and the UN with their "special rapporteurs" are looking out for my safety. Where would I be without them.

    I wonder if any members of the Iraqi Parliament got up and compared Samir's prison conditions to those of the Gulag, and Republican Guard soldiers to Nazi's. I wonder. Wonder.

  9. #9
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability." - Galloway to Hussein, after Desert Storm
    What a guy. I wonder if he admired Saddam's slicing machines.

  10. #10
    Member Member Productivity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Hey look! They're on it!
    I seem to be missing something here. What are you suggesting they should have done? Raised an army and invaded personally?

    As far as I can tell, AI is an organisation devoted to trying to apply non-violent pressure upon those who violate human rights (in it's view), and lobbying for a fair system of justice, regardless of who is on trial. Isn't that what they did/are doing here?

    I haven't completely read the article, but I skimmed it, and the synopsis seems to be that they have called out throughout the SH years, for something to be done, and are now criticising the justice system that has been created for the trying of those who allegedly committed crimes during the SH years, because said justice system in their view contains grievous flaws. It then proceeds to spend ~3/4 of the article going over those flaws.

    I am not getting the idea that they don't want justice to be done, they simply want it to be done fairly, and in a open and transparent way, which in their view the current system will not facilitate.

  11. #11
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Why bring into this a perfectly good and very productive charity for human rights and those imprisoned, abused and punished without any form of justice and a politician found guilty of nothing but stating some bad choices of phrase at Saddam?

    The mind boggles...

    The only way a charity gets any praise by certain members of a certain country is if it sucks up to corporations, bows down before Bush's dick or has 'Christianity' in the title.

    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  12. #12

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    He chose the nail????!!!!

    In god's name why!
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 06-22-2005 at 17:27.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    He chose the nail????!!!!

    In god's name why!
    ... The nail was a good choice.

    Well, that's a pretty tough story, and a tough storyteller. Where is Saddam involved?
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 06-22-2005 at 17:28.

  14. #14
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    where is the bush admin involved in guantanamo or abu gharib?
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    where is the bush admin involved in guantanamo or abu gharib?
    Well, I heard that Rumsfeld was doing all the directing in Guantanamo's case.

  16. #16
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Sorry, I am lost in this discussion.

    Is it about:
    1. Saddam and his regime were very bad
    2. UN and Amnesty are unable to stop things like these
    3. Bush/US did
    4. However, US/Bush are hurting the human right themselves
    5. US/Bush are as bad as Saddam?

    Here my comments:

    1. I agree
    2. Yes. They can put pressure on the dictators but have no means to stop them. International court and laws would help!
    3. Yes! And this is the best result of the war. However, even the US influence has limits. They are not able to stop these kind of things in China, for example.
    4. Yes! Even though this has been discussed controversial, I agree.
    5. That statement would be redicolous.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    where is the bush admin involved in guantanamo or abu gharib?
    Hang on. Either they are involved, or American forces are out of control. neither is a particularly pleasant scenario.

    On topic, forgive me for saying it but isn't this rather a manichean view of the world? Everyone is either wholly good or wholly evil? Because saddam was bad, anything done to get rid of him was good, so anyone complaining about any part of it was bad?

    Isn't it possible that bad things have been done in the process of getting rid of a bad person? And shouldn't AI condemn all bad things, whether Saddam doers them or whether the U does them?
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  18. #18
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    It points out how absurd the accusations are by AI and Durbin.


    JAG, gee, you really have my number. Read my like a book. W's dick and Christianity. That's all I think about. (Classy remark for an Englishman, btw.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    1. Saddam and his regime were very bad
    Undeniable. (Even though he had courage and was indefatiguable)

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    2. UN and Amnesty are unable to stop things like these
    I've never seen them stop anything like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    3. Bush/US did
    Credit where credit's due?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    4. However, US/Bush are hurting the human right themselves
    Agreeing with this requires a cognitive dissonance that only preconcieved notions can nurture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franconicus
    5. US/Bush are as bad as Saddam?
    I wonder who'll be the first to say, "Before we answer what's bad, can we define it? What if what they thought they were doing wasn't bad?!"

  19. #19
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Agreeing with this requires a cognitive dissonance that only preconcieved notions can nurture.
    Proletariat,
    I really love the way you write. But can you express it in simple words so that a barbarian from the north can follow?

  20. #20
    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    I meant that in order to compare the human rights abuses between a place like Iraq to the US (which AI basically equated with their 'Gulag' non-sense) requires a serious predisposition against the US.

    My apologies, Franc. I'm a fan of the way you reason, btw.

  21. #21
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    I meant that in order to compare the human rights abuses between a place like Iraq to the US (which AI basically equated with their 'Gulag' non-sense) requires a serious predisposition against the US.
    But if the US lowers their official standards in order to get rid of someone worse, when will it stop? Perhaps lowering standards just a bit more could give even better results?
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  22. #22
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    The problem isn't just that the US broke human rights (and whatever else) to get rid of Saddam, that might be classified under 'necessary evil'. The problem is that they continue to break them.

    But yes, the US is not nearly as bad as Saddam, AI never achieved anything but to raise awareness and the UN doesn't do much about civil rights either. Of course, the UN security council isn't really about civil rights, it's about preventing war. I agree the UN needs reforms.

    But let's not forget, no one went to war because saddam was evil, that's was just an added benefit. The war was stated because he was manufacturing WMD and aiding terrorists. Both of those reasons are false.

    Getting rid of saddam was good, but don't pretend that was the main idea all along.
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  23. #23

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    The problem isn't just that the US broke human rights (and whatever else) to get rid of Saddam, that might be classified under 'necessary evil'. The problem is that they continue to break them.
    I fear that this is becoming one of those things that if said enough - it becomes quasi-fact in the minds of those who dont think for themselves.

    What human rights laws are we breaking?



    In any event, I wont take anything AI says seriously until they figure out what the word "gulag" means. What idiots.

  24. #24
    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I fear that this is becoming one of those things that if said enough - it becomes quasi-fact in the minds of those who dont think for themselves.

    What human rights laws are we breaking?
    Amnesty International always finds a few

    reports of torture and ill-treatment, religious humiliation and arbitrary detention
    The last bit is worrying, the rest is mostly whining
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

  25. #25

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Ok - the only thing i give any credence to is the arbitrary detention, but even that isn't breaking any rules.

    Gawain made the case best, but ill take a shot at it.

    Al Queda, in writing, declared war on the US. However, they do not where military uniforms, therefore the geneva convention laws do not apply to them. No uniforms = no POW status. So we are well within our rights to hold these enemy combatants until the war they started is over.

  26. #26
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Ok - the only thing i give any credence to is the arbitrary detention, but even that isn't breaking any rules.

    Gawain made the case best, but ill take a shot at it.

    Al Queda, in writing, declared war on the US. However, they do not where military uniforms, therefore the geneva convention laws do not apply to them. No uniforms = no POW status. So we are well within our rights to hold these enemy combatants until the war they started is over.
    You are joking, aren't you, Panzer? If AQ is not a military organisation, how can they declare war? If they are terrorist - they are criminals, bad ugly criminals. But still they have rights.

  27. #27
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    I meant that in order to compare the human rights abuses between a place like Iraq to the US (which AI basically equated with their 'Gulag' non-sense) requires a serious predisposition against the US.

    My apologies, Franc. I'm a fan of the way you reason, btw.
    Proletariat,
    Please believe me that it was not my intention to compare the HR abuses of Saddam with what the US did, not in my wildest dreams. But there were abuses and they were bad.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    You are joking, aren't you, Panzer? If AQ is not a military organisation, how can they declare war? If they are terrorist - they are criminals, bad ugly criminals. But still they have rights.
    They are a paramilitary organization. Dont tell me they cant declare war - tell them.

    As far as Im concerned theyve got no rights. Call me a heartless conservative, but affording rights to a person that would love to cut my throat doesnt sound appealing.

    People dont seem to understand how serious the situation is. Do you realize people released from Gitmo go right back into the fight. Surely you are joking if you expect America to treat these terrorists as anything else than what they are: blood thirsty killers.

  29. #29
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    I refrained from posting in this when I read the article and had nothing to add. But seriously what is this thread even about, it seems quite pointless.


    Yes we know that people were tortured and executed under Saddam's regime, what else is new?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Paging Amnesty International.

    Some people would rather forget that. It doesnt fit into their world view of America being the Great Satin.

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