Countdown to Open Beta - Eleutheroi

[eadingas]

You know, sometimes I think we should ask for a donation from EU, as a project that reminds people what Europe is all about. Some historian, I forget now who, said a while ago that Europe breathes with two lungs: the "Imperial" one, which includes the cultures of mediterranean, Roman Empire, and, eventually, Christianity in form that developed in this empire, and "Barbarian" one, which includes all the rest, all the multitude of the peoples, the Slavs, Germans and Celts. Both are equally important to what we are now. Just because for some reason you learn in school more about the first than about the other, doesn't mean you can dismiss the other as just a footnote to history.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

what i meant in my previous post was that word barbarian was just used to describe someone different. by calling their enemy barbarians the greeks and the romans made them seem less human so the mass slaughter and the destruction of these 'barbarians' culture could be made acceptable. this has happened in many wars throughout history and creates an incorrect image of the enemy. for instance in the first world war the allies thought of the germans as barbarians and used derogatory terms like barbarian to make their slaughter more acceptable to the people at home. the germans did the same, using such words to describe the allies.
I personally think that the so called barbarian nations had just as advanced a culture as the romans and the greeks after all they had inventers and geniuses too.

[eadingas]

I think every people in history called everyone else by some derogatory term or other, usually meaning "Not Us", or "Different" or "Speaking different language". If they didn't, it was implied by calling themselves "People" or "Us" or "Speaking our language"... So there's nothing wrong with that...

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

- Olekkos varma?
Paljonko sää sitä vetoa lyöt?

Et osannu kirjottaa tuotakkaan kirjakielellä, että voin lyödäkki.

Gelatinous Cube, looks like EB isn't for you, try RTR. It focuses to civilised factions.

[asilv]

So what factions you would like to see in EB Gelatinous Cube? If all barbarians were replaced by rebels as you suggested there would be about 10 faction slots free(depending on your definion of barbarian). I don't think there are enough significant "civilized" factions.

[offtopic]

Et osannu kirjottaa tuotakkaan kirjakielellä, että voin lyödäkki.

Helvetin sosiaaliteinit

Sosiaaliteinit? Mitäs ne on? Sosiaalitanttojen esiasteita?
[/offtopic]
Maybe we barbarians should move this discusson to the talk your own language thread...

[Kääpäkorven Konsuli]

[offtopic]
Sosiaaliteinit? Mitäs ne on? Sosiaalitanttojen esiasteita?
[/offtopic]
Maybe we barbarians should move this discusson to the talk your own language thread...

[offtopic]
- Vittu vähäx mä asun korvessa, vittu täällä ei o mitään, vittu kaikki kaveritki asuu kilometrin päässää...
Elikkä sosiaalisesti riippuvaisia teinejä
Mitä ne Sosiaalitantot sitten on?
[/offtopic]

[Jebus]

I think every people in history called everyone else by some derogatory term or other, usually meaning "Not Us", or "Different" or "Speaking different language". If they didn't, it was implied by calling themselves "People" or "Us" or "Speaking our language"... So there's nothing wrong with that...

It's funny, but there seem to be more and more people 'fighting' for an adequate appreciation of barbarian/medieval culture, instead of just orgasming on the Greco-Roman one. I too got into a discussion on that on another board, recently...

[Ranika]

Ah, if you worry we have a bias in favor of barbarians, please, don't worry. We have many very good Hellenic historians and great 'fans' of Hellenic civilizations. Everyone is being done as much justice as we can do them (given the constraints). Our concern is not 'non-conformity' so much as it is simply enlightening the conformed sense. 'Civilized' peoples WERE civilized, and we reflect that. They're being given as much care as barbarians (and in some cases, more, simply because we have the resources in terms of manpower to do them well). However, we want realistic barbarians. The CA portrayal has them all pretty much the same, and it wasn't like that at all. The tribes of Celts were more like feudal estates of the middle ages; they weren't all just indepedent tribesmen duking it out. Many paid homage to kings in other tribes, and formed large kingdoms that encompassed many tribes. However, there is a stigma that comes with using the word 'tribe', it brings to mind purely indepedent wild tribes with no central authority; to the contrary, one of the great things about this period in terms of Celts (that I wish RTW could do for us) would be the civil war of Gaul. The Aedui, who had come to power as the dominate tribe (tribes in Gaul were more like later noble houses, vying for control of the dominion). However, they poorly handled an invasion of the Belgae and Germanic incursions had overwhelmed their eastern most lands. As such, their subservient tribes grew restless and lost faith in Aedui leadership. The most powerful, the Arverni, brought several tribes under their banner in a large rebellion. Other tribes just outright flouted the rule of the Aedui. The Aedui, in the end, had only a few tribes that remained loyal, though they reincorporated many. Gaul wasn't a wild free-for-all, it was a splintered kingdom with a very complicated political situation. Imitating the war between the Aedui and their loyal tribes, and the Arverni and their dissident tribes, would be quite a bit of epic feel. The Romans largely exploited this conflict, as well as German invasions, to conquer Gaul. The Romans notably don't often fight actual Gallic armies; they don't have to. The Gauls were killing eachother and fighting the Germans, and simply spent themselves upon one another. This is only an example of political machinations of barbarian states; if you started replacing names, but kept the events, that could easily sound like the events that destroyed a number of states. However, we only imitate what we can within our constraints. Greece and Italy are going to be well fleshed out, as is the east. Our goal isn't to play favorites at all (despite some naysayers, who are more or less just whining and have no idea what we're actually doing; they see a faction they don't like has anything good, and then they get upset), but to give historical balances, disadvantages, and advantages. That isn't just in terms of units and buildings, though that is present (the Britons, for example, have little in the way of cavalry, but have good chariots, and many different soldiers based on different tribes, particularly many skirmishers and light infantry, giving them a variety to select from, as opposed to Gauls, who have a more even mix of decent cavalry, weaker chariots, good (and more) shock infantry, and some different tribal regionals, making both factions play quite differently, despite their relations). Starting position, and current relations with neighbors can heavily affect how easy or difficult a faction is to play. 'Balance' is wholely secondary to reality. If faction X starts at war with factions Y and Z, and that makes it very difficult to play faction X, we won't change it anyway, if it's historically accurate. Some factions start with only one province; advantageous in that it's easy to manage, but disadvantageous because it leaves little room for failure, and offers little in resources. The Britons start with one province; however, Britain is a rich place, and that is an advantage for the Britons, as they expand into their immediate surroundings, though the 'rebel' tribes will be hard to subdue; they had the same advantage of much local wealth, general good health, and could afford strong forces. The Germans also start with one province, but it's poor, and immediate expansion is necessary to fund a decent army. Again, nearby tribes suffered from similar problems. The idea is to make the regions realistic, and keep the AI acting in a similar method to the actual people, but allow a good human player the ability to expand, though, in some cases more than others, it will purposely be difficult to sustain a faction at first.

[eadingas]

You guys are so keen on finnish, do me some research on proto-finnish names.

[eadingas]

It's funny, but there seem to be more and more people 'fighting' for an adequate appreciation of barbarian/medieval culture, instead of just orgasming on the Greco-Roman one. I too got into a discussion on that on another board, recently...

Didn't read much of it, but I can tell you these guys are some 50 years too late in their understanding of European history. "Barbarian" laws and customs have at least equal, if not stronger, influence on our laws and customs today, to that of Rome and the classics. It is something quite obvious now, and no point debating it, really.
And let's not forget who won in the end :D

[Idomeneas]

Didn't read much of it, but I can tell you these guys are some 50 years too late in their understanding of European history. "Barbarian" laws and customs have at least equal, if not stronger, influence on our laws and customs today, to that of Rome and the classics. It is something quite obvious now, and no point debating it, really.
And let's not forget who won in the end :D

I dont think somebody particular won in the end. Meanning you cannot just consider all barbarian nations as an entity. You cannot do this even for Greeks. They fighted as nation (or sort of) only 3 times in history (trojan war persian wars and Alexanders march in Asia) and even in these cases there are many debatable points. The only people that maybe correspond to nation-race-state model are the romans.

[eadingas]

Okay then, let me rephrase that:
let's not forget who LOST in the end ;D

better? :)

[Steppe Merc]

Why, why, WHY does EVERYTHING have to be an argument with you people?! And don't say "because so-and-so is an idiot and knows nothing about history", because by perpetuating the argument, you are just as idiotic. I mean, I can understand the occasional venting of frustration- and Gelationus Cube's comment was somewhat uncalled-for- but by refusing to let it go, you're just perpetuating a situation that everyone else is bored to death by.

I'd prefer if you did not call me an idiot, thank you. And why do we have to adress it? Because this is what the mod is about. Sorry if you are bored, but this is about history. And we owe it to people to at least try and explain the history from which we are coming from.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Fair enough. What about Spain? Having 4 Barbarian factions would just be overkill. There are alot better factions that could be represented. (Although in my opinion, Gauls and Germans are more than enough).

That is your oppinion, not ours. In adition, do nor forget what EB means...

[Freeze]

Will there be an army from the Belgae that's lead by Ambiorix? He was a famous leader that once ambushed and slaughtered a whole roman legion

[The Wizard]

Ambiorix is so far out of our starting date timeframe that we can only guarantee him as a spawning general amongst the Aedui (where his is one of our many male names) and the Eleutheroi, depending on the region the general is spawned in.

P.S. Ambiorix was okay, but Julius Civilis beats him hands down



~Wiz

[Steppe Merc]

Was he the little guy in the comic, or the fat one? I assume your talking about that weird French comic, correct?

[Epistolary Richard]

I think every people in history called everyone else by some derogatory term or other, usually meaning "Not Us", or "Different" or "Speaking different language". If they didn't, it was implied by calling themselves "People" or "Us" or "Speaking our language"... So there's nothing wrong with that...

Aside from the Apache of course, who amusingly ended up taking their name from what everybody else called them... "Enemy"

[Delenda est Carthago]

Sorry if this has been asked, but i am new here, (i have been on the totalwar.com forums for some time though) will you be able to play as the Eleutheroi? Its just that i want to use those guys with the hammers!!!!!

I want this mod so much, i have been following the previews for some time, keep up the amazing work!

[QwertyMIDX]

Well you can play as the Eleutheroi, but it's not reccomended as they aren't actually a faction. But other factions can use the Goidilic Ordmhornaght as well (basically the celtic factions and the celticish iberians).

Oh, and use this as your sig

not that huge one, it will annoy the moderators.

[eadingas]

You'll be able to use most of the regional units one way or another, as you conquer the map. Not all of the units all of the time, but vast majority of them will be at some point available to the player.

[The Wizard]

Was he the little guy in the comic, or the fat one? I assume your talking about that weird French comic, correct?

Sounds like it eh? -ix is simply an often-heard suffix of Gallic names.

No, we're not talking 'bout cunning Asterix or that gangsta Obelix, but about a real Belgae chieftain, who forged a confederacy against Julius Caesar and annihalated a couple of legions here and there before he got pwned by Caesar.



~Wiz

[eadingas]

No, we're not talking 'bout cunning Asterix or that gangsta Obelix, but about a real Belgae chieftain, who forged a confederacy against Julius Caesar and annihalated a couple of legions here and there before he got pwned by Caesar.
~Wiz

One, not couple :)

[The Wizard]

I guess I didn't pay attention when we did De Bello Gallico



~Wiz

[Steppe Merc]

Oh. Heh, in French class, I always used to read those comic books instead of doing my work...

[Idomeneas]

Okay then, let me rephrase that:
let's not forget who LOST in the end ;D

better? :)

yes

[Delenda est Carthago]

Thanks for the sig tip, consider it changed...


God i love those hammers

[Mongoose]

Yeah, ranix is great for an @sshole who wants to shag objects

On a more serious note: the barbarians should pay a bigger role then they did in RTW vanilla, IMHO. Don't you think it would make the game more interesting to, say, stop the Gallic army from taking Greece? fighting the same armys every time gets boring fast.

[Eucarionte]

While Celts were painting their bodies with gliphs, running naked through the woods and fighting likewise, celebrating Neolithic customs and rituals in deep, dark and isolated forests and collecting the heads of their enemies in their pants, Greeks were building the Parthenon and the Colossus of Rhodes, developing Physics, Medicine, Monumental arquitecture, Poetry, recording History, Philosophy, Democracy, Literature, Law, Mathematics, navigating the seas for trade and cultural purposes, engineering and creating the base of what we understand actually as "human development".

Enough said.

[eadingas]

...at least that's what we can learn from vanilla RTW :)